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Old 20th May 2008, 10:39 AM   #21
sek is offline sek  Germany
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Et voilą, comme je disais.

Thanks for the link(s), kepa1.
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Old 20th May 2008, 11:11 AM   #22
sek is offline sek  Germany
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Hi Don,

after you mentioned the tapped horn thread, I took a look at the progress the colaboration had made. Incredible so far, I had missed how long this thread had grown since last time I checked.

I also think that a tapped horn (folded, hidden) is a good approach to a home theater sub, especially if it's going to be frugal.


Quote:
In my original post,I was going to mention the Adire HE10.1,but to the best of my knowledge,they are no longer available.:-(
That's not a problem to Jean-Michel, I think, as he wouldn't have ordered the original HE10.1 anyway. Also, the project is well documented for everyone willing to still build it. Thanks for the construction guide.


Quote:
If you don't have a front projector,you have no choice but to place the center speaker above or below the picture.The larger the screen,the more it has to be off set.Strange to hear voices coming from the ceiling...or out of the floor...
You're absolutely right, we didn't talk about Jean-Michel's screen solution up to now.

In the planned room, it's not clear to me wether the two front speakers would still be close enough to each other in order to achieve a phantom source in the middle for everyone in the auditorium...

What signal processing do you incorporate in order to circumvent the center? Something special?

Cheers,
Sebastian.
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Old 20th May 2008, 06:47 PM   #23
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Bunce
I forgot to mention in my previous post that a way to keep the cost down without sacrificing quality is to not use a center channel.(you can add one at a later time if you feel you must)

I have yet to hear a center channel that I thought improved the sound over using the phantom mode.The center speaker needs to be identical to the left and right speakers,(most aren't)and there is generally no way to place it properly,unless you have an acoustically transparent screen,with the speaker placed behind it.

If you don't have a front projector,you have no choice but to place the center speaker above or below the picture.The larger the screen,the more it has to be off set.Strange to hear voices coming from the ceiling...or out of the floor...

Anyway,that's my opinion,and something else to think about...
Having built a lot of theaters and trying all the options I agree with this 100%. The three mains MUST be identical or use a phantom center. I have three identical speakers in front, all behind my "Magical Acoustically Transparent Wonder Screen" (a bed sheet) and there IS an advantage to a center channel, BUT ONLY if it is identical to the sides, at the same height as the sides and dead on center screen. Otherwise delete it and save the money. Buy better main speakers.

The surrounds should not use horns - they should be wide directivity.

PS. you might consider my kits as they meet your targets - except price, but then your target cost is pretty low for anything but custom built units where you absorb the cost of building them.
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Old 20th May 2008, 06:50 PM   #24
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
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Ok, back in the place!

As I said I tried to answer yesterday, but it crashed on me after a long (wasted) time and after I had to go...

Ok, first of all I have attached a drawing of the room. Sorry for the annotations in french, but I did not take the time to translate them. I think the dimensions are pretty obvious, as well as listening/viewing position. "F" stands for front speakers and "C" for center. All 3 will be behind the screen. "Alt. F" is the alternative position of front speakers (right below screen this time) if we want to give them more width, but I'd rather live them behind the screen.

The yellow-ish layer against front walls is accoustic treatment (fabric over rockwool). The cieling will be rockwool as well, certainly a laminate floor. It is pretty obvious the size is not ideal, but "pushing the walls" was not an option. The dispersion for the rear speakers is going to be challenging and it certainly won't be ideal for the extreme seats (the ones on each side). The "sweet spot" will be ssuite narros as well, but again, "pushing the walls" was not an option.

To answer more directly your questions now...


Quote:
First of all, what's to say against the L8S800? You seemed to like it in the beginning. Of course it's not like a 10" punch and maximum sound pressure, but we're talking home cinema loudness levels, not concert grade. It's pricey, but comparable 10"ers are, too!
The L8S800 is indeed looking like a good 8' (one that goes low, and with a quite flat response curve). It is more the concept of the 8' that we kind of dropped (though as you say this one goes low).
Basically, it looked dificult to have a 8' going as wlow as 60/80Hz, then when switchning to a 10', it was dificult to mate it with a small compression like a DE10 and that how we ended up with 10'+DE250 (for the front speakkers at least) in the configuration called "Optimum".
More specifically on this one :
- having 5 would be stretching the budget and it does not have a "little brother" within the RCF line up that would offer same sound "colour" but cheaper;
- we failed finding lot of feedback (it is to note that the few we found were positive) or implementation examples;
- quite a few people in the forum I belong and/or browse (the exact ones kepa1 pointed to, I am part of homecinem-fr.com) use Beymas, none used this RCF. We felt that we would get help from the community.


Quote:
Second of all, you didn't mention the nature of the installation yet. Will it be fixed (as in non-moveable) or semi-fix (as in moved out occasionally for seasonal parties)?
Yep, instalation will be non moveable.


Quote:
And third of all, what's the requirement set you're ultimatively aiming for? I had casually mentioned THX and the like. Did you set qualitative and quantitative goals for the essential things like SPL(max), coverage angles, rear speaker configuration, etc.?
This is difficult one...
On the SPL... I am nota big fan of loud listening, but I do like to get all details of a soundtrack (or music) without struggling. What does it means in dBs, I habve no idea (and do not have a SPL meter to measure what I would rate as "normal" listening level. It is to note though that the room is going to be quite absorbant which generally lead to higher listening volumes.
As you can see from the drawing, if I keep the front speakers behind the screen, they are going to be pretty close and I am not sure there will be enough space between tehm for good stereo, that's why I am keeping the option of the alternate position (but then, all 3 are not leveled, unless I put all three belos the screen)...
The rear speakers are the real headacke... I am just afraid that there will not be a good solution, not with home-brew DIY at least as I think the only way to create enough diffraction for the job would be to go dipole (or bipole ?) and I would think that it is in the "too hard box" at this stage (for me at least). I remender reading something about a guy that designed various dipole configuration, and there was a few attempts before he had the ideal set up... How stupid was I not to save this link!!! I definitely started from here, but I think it was on a DIYer website...
So I probably have to accept that the situation won't be ideal here.


Quote:
So how about using a combination like L8S800/N350 only in the front? Saves overall money and improves the quality of the whole system (...) compared to resorting to something less good in all speakers.
We are indeed keen on an "unbalanced" set up although some multi-channel gurus would call us heretics. Ithink that it may be required to have 5 fully identical speakers for multi-channel music, I do not feel it as important for a HT set up.


Quote:
The Beyma 10G40 is a very well regarded 400W woofer. Five of them inside a room is definitely overkill.
The plan would not be to have 5 of them (or 5 10'), the idea would be to have cheaper and smaller drives for the rears speakers (Beyma SM108 are good suspects)...


Quote:
It's advantages over the L8S800 would be more bass (which you don't need) and higher SPL(max) (which you don't need, too).
i am not sure I fully agree on the "no more bass than the L8S800", I definitely agree on the "no need more SPL".
We did not switch to 10' for SPL, but for the ability to go down to 60/80Hz.


Quote:
It'll be just "too much sound", yeah! And I don't even consider it the optimum, btw.
Sebastian, actually I missed this bit yesterday, but I am keen for you to expand on this.
Is it the 10G40 you do not like full stop (because the SM110/n look like another good candidate), the Beymas, or just the value for money is not right. Please, speak your mind .


[quote]Monacor components can be surprisingly better than expected. I have no doubt that a Monacor horn and midbass speaker can also be good. ...
I know of some projects and kits using SPA 12" speakers, ..., but none with the SPA25-PA either.[quote]
This is part of our problem and why we are a little bit wearry with Monacor. We failed getting some feedback though one guy had good words about the SPA-30PA, but on the French forums, no one seem to have actually tried the SPA25-PA. It is to note as well that they both require more volume that the other 10' and 8' we have looked at (the SPA30-PA requires a lot more).


Quote:
...don't hesitate to combine different manufacturers (i.e. how about Monacor's SP25-PA with 18Sound's XT1086 and B&C's DE250?).
This configuration is not completely out and we actaully discussed it. Cons are that the SPA25-PA would stretch the volume (we can only allow for 25l max.). And again, in the community we belong, we had good feedback on Beymasn hardly any on Monacor. I was not too sure though about mixing a highly rated compression like the DE250 and a "very good value for money but yet cheap" midrange like the Monacor. Isn't it likely to be wasted money on the compression ?


Quote:
If I were to do it with what I know about your goals, I would consider Benjamin's MT-181 with the N350 in the front and the CT235 for the rears.
Actaully, I am not too sure about havinga so different set up for the front and rears. Though I do not fully buy into teh requirement of ahiving all of them identical, I think it may be necessary to stay with the same brands to keep sound similar.


Quote:
But I don't think the goals are set for this already.
Well, I am not too sure what else I can add, if you feel anything is missing, please ask.

Thanks again all for playing ball.
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Old 20th May 2008, 07:00 PM   #25
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
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Quote:
In my original post,I was going to mention the Adire HE10.1,... I am using a pair for my surround speakers in my HT system... The Eminence Beta 10cx,APT-50,and the PXB2-3K5 crossover is about $135 USD...
Don, how would you rate both the sound quality and coverage angle of these units (and eventually sound quality for wide coverage angle ).

I have bookmarked the thread on taped horm and promise to read it all. I hope to find there a "folded" example of a realisation that would suit my size requirements, but I think I shall do the 5.0 speakers first as I feel that the sub will be less problematic. And it feels there PLENTY of DIY designs available.
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Old 20th May 2008, 07:00 PM   #26
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by jm_kzo

This is difficult one...
On the SPL... I am nota big fan of loud listening, but I do like to get all details of a soundtrack (or music) without struggling. What does it means in dBs, I habve no idea (and do not have a SPL meter to measure what I would rate as "normal" listening level.
There have been a lot of discussion on this point. here is my opinion. If you are going to want to watch movies and get the same impression that you get at the theater then you have to have the same SPL as a theater. Thats about 110 - 120 dB SPL max without distortion. A good system like I make will do this, but it takes a very efficient system to reach these levels cleanly.

Lower SPLs will just not "grab" you like they are supposed to.

Read my chapters on home theater at www.gedlee.com you will learn a lot.
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Old 20th May 2008, 07:20 PM   #27
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
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Quote:
I forgot to mention in my previous post that a way to keep the cost down without sacrificing quality is to not use a center channel.(you can add one at a later time if you feel you must)
Removing center channel is not an option I seriously considered until now (though I kknew it was possible), but I might do (especially considering the "narrowness" of the room)...


Quote:
there IS an advantage to a center channel, BUT ONLY if it is identical to the sides, at the same height as the sides and dead on center screen. Otherwise delete it and save the money. Buy better main speakers.
Yes Earl, if I have one, it will be identical, behind the screen and centered (and most probabaly leveled with mains).


Quote:
What signal processing do you incorporate in order to circumvent the center? Something special?
I think its is amode of the AV amp. It definitely was in the Pro Logic days, I must admit that I have not checked on my Yamaha, but I asuume it must be the same.


Quote:
The surrounds should not use horns - they should be wide directivity.
I would be really happy if you could explain this a little bit (you are talking to a newbie in lot of domains here).
The questions that your comment raise (in my mind) are :
- what to use that would provide similar dynamics (and eventually similar sound) than the compression + horn of the front ? Is it the kind of things called "super tweeter" or "bullet tweeter"?

- do you get wide directivity by using more drives (the commercial HT dipole rear speakers have one drive toward the front and one toward the back of the room and sometimes other on the "main side") or is it something more special/clever about either the drives or the design of a single drive(+HF unit) loudspeaker ?

Many thanks for schedding some light here, I feel in the dark .

Re your kits, if I remember correctly they indeed do not fit in my budget (by a long mile), but thank you for offering the option anyway.
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Old 20th May 2008, 07:35 PM   #28
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Thom Holman recommends the surrounds to be dipoles, this is what I do, but Floyd Toole recomends them to be monopoles. Floyd is more interested in multichannel for sound field recreation, Holman more for side fill effects on film. In film the surround channels are used for effect and never get the same level of SPL from them that the mains do. I use fairly small surrounds - dipoles on the side with the dipole axis facing the listener. I use monopoles for the EX channel in the back, but I see you don't have one of those. By far and away the most impoartant speakers are the LR mains. DO NOT sell these short getting a center channel or surrounds. I'd get really good mains even if thats all I had. I would never degrade the mains to buy a center and surrounds. This is just throwing away the main sound trying to get more sound - a bad idea.
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Old 20th May 2008, 07:40 PM   #29
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
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Default The current trend of thoughts...

Finally (for today), I thought I would give you an update on the current trend of thoughts (though everything is still very fluid an moves by the day)...

Ok, so we have conceded that all of this is going to be hard work and we do not really know what we are doing.

There are still question marks about the relevance of having 10' for the fronts as it brings cost challenges (10' are not only more expensive, they require using "bigger" compression for example, they would mate with a DE250, but not a DE10). Some says that a 8' with a DE10 could be enogh...

So as to avoid wasting too much money, we tought we would start working on the configuration that is most likely to be used for rears (DE10 + ME20 + Beyma SM108)...

If we succeed making all this work together, it could happen that it is sounding "good enough", "loud enough" and possibly not that far away from "low enough" (bass) to suit us for the front. We then just have to complete the 5.0 set with all DE10 + SM108 and we end on the cheap side.

If we succeed making all this work together, but we think it is not enough for the front speakers (not enough sound quality, SPL, bass), we keep this configuration for the rear speakesr and we are back to the workshop to do the "same" with better speakers for the front. If we hook up on B&C+Beyam for the rears, we thought that we'd rather stay with B&C and Beyma for the front and would go for either 10G40 or SM110/n + DE250.

If we do not succeed to make the bloody thing work together, we can cry and go to the shop buy a decent commercial set like the Jamo D6... We'd jhave lost a bit of money but can most probably limit the loss by selling the "hardly" used drives on eBay...

Now there are 2 major issues here:
- Sebastian is teasing me with his love for the L8S800 ... this cannot be completely ignored ;
- Earl shot the "horn for rears" whole concept in flames...

I feel this is not the end of our "newbie designer" quest..., No, not the end at all...

PS: Earl, I am printing your good litterature right now, it will make an excellent "pub dinner on my own" reading!
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Old 20th May 2008, 08:30 PM   #30
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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"we do not really know what we are doing."

Personally I wouldn't agree with this statement. Having built about a dozen rooms like you propose I have a pretty good idea what will work.

I will say that you are headed down a path that will not likely be what you want in the end. "Newbie" designs and construction are seldom "right the first time". The time delay until you do get it right, assuming this ever happens, will be frustrating because the enjoyment that you could be having with a great HT will not be there. DON'T make your HT the gineu pig of your desire experiment with loudspeakers. Go with a proven design.
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