5.1 DIY kit with on PA speakers (or good & small DIY kit with PA speakers) ? - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th May 2008, 12:06 PM   #11
sek is offline sek  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
sek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Berlin
Hi Jean-Michel,


Quote:
they cannot be used for the rears (an 8' will fit, but not a H100 horn... This would require designing anoter "rear" with eventually the same 8' but a smaller and as well cheaper compression... almost as challenging as the "full thing".
Hmmm, let me think about it.

Despite the still open question wether a H100 (or anything similar) is the right dispersion flare for the purpose, why shouldn't it fit into your proposed 25cm height of the trapezoidal enclosure you designed? Didn't we find out that even a XT1086 with a DE250 on it would fit into 22cm?

Did I miss something?


Quote:
I was actually in touch with Benjamin and he told that he is working on a version of the MT-181 with an RCF N350 compression which according to him would be more hifi...
Yes, he's also working on:
- LBT-110 (Delta 10, BMS 4524, XT120): ca. 140€,
- LMT-101 (Delta 10, RCF N350, H100): 210€,
- MT-101 (18s MB600, BMS 4550, XT1086): > 350€,

This guy is really busy and helpful.
Unfortunately I don't think he is a member here on diyaudio.com...

A quick research shows that the combination of L8S800, N350 and H100 would come out at 240 Euro without the crossover components.

Andreas Guhde from Cantare Audiosystems posted measurements of the N350 on H100 and XT1086 for comparison, just in case you are interrested...


Quote:
When you say it had good reviews, in what context was it (pure PA or home hifi as well) ?
Both, actually. But as the MT-181 is relatively new and demand for a DIY 8" project isn't too large in the PA business, all information I could find relates to the builders from Benjamin's Project log and visitors in his shop.


Quote:
As well re the el Cheapo kit from lautschprecher shop, when you say quality is low, you think it wηill "translate" in sound ?
Quite frankly, yes. But that's only in comparison to the other, better quality components we were talking about.

I'm not a friend of the regular Eminence programme (in contrast to their OEM models), but for under 100 Euro I don't think it isn't worth a try. Imagine the two rears being cheaper than a single front speaker.

It depends on how much you focus on sound quality with the rears, as they will likely just stay muted when listening to music.


Quote:
this 8' kit [...] Ever heard about it ?
Nope, and I don't think I ever will.

Manufacturer application notes are reference implementations. No professional manufacturer will simply copy them, and I don't know of any DIYers who build such manufacturer kits without own modifications.


Quote:
Any opinion ?
Yes, clearly.

Draw up a quick 3D sketch of the room you plan. Position a rear speaker in the corner under the ceiling at the rear end behind the auditorium. What angle does it have to cover in order to disperse the sound equally over the whole horizontal and vertical plane, especially the vertical one? Compare this to i.e. the horizontal and vertical polar maps in the 18Sound application note, especially the vertical one...

I promised not to rant about it again, so I won't stress that the XT120 is just another PA component unsuitable for HT in this application (i.e. distance, angle). Or will I?
Also, Benjamin's MT-181 is a better development, all in all.


Quote:
PS : why are we just on our own ?
Maybe it's because we're talking about genuinely European products on an American forum?
C'mon guys, chime in with your recommendations and experiences.

Cheers,
Sebastian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2008, 02:41 PM   #12
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Ok, I told you guys (well...) that I would sched some light on what are our current trend of thoughts, so I am...

When we realised that we were having lots of dificulties findinf an existing DIY kit/plan for the purpose we started thinking about it from scratch.

At first, we thought "8' will be well enough, and lets add a nice little compression that will be smashing!!!"...

When trying to find a 8' that would go low enough (80Hz in 20/25l) with a nice flatish response curve, and that would go high enough to mate with a little compression, there was not many... The RCF L8S800 stood out. Marying him with a little RCF ND1411 on a B&C ME20 horn was looking nice and pretty. On a size point of view, we could make 5 identical speakers (bar enclosure), the budget was really stretched (+/- 245€ per speaker incl. 50€ for the cross over).

But we shared this on forums like this one it was a very different story as it would seem the RCF 1411 is no good below 5k (as most "little compressions"), and obvioulsy no mid woofer would/should go as high as well as going down to 80Hz.

As well, the idea of having an 8' going as low as 80Hz with low distorsion is a bit optimistic (apparently)...

We then reviewed various option incl. going to a bigger compression like DE250 and a 10' for the fronts, but having to account for budget restrictions on the rears... During this brainstorming process, coaxial set up where asd well discussed... We remained with 4 options that we think are valid and worth thinking about, the other being of little interest (because the expected value or value for money is not looking great compare to those 4)... We have given those options "little names" so that we can discuss and identify them easily. It is to note that for each option, the actual drivers are propositions still under discussion. Thier characteristics (on paper), qualities (unfortunately, by hear-say) and prices are what matters. As well cross over is included in budget as well as misceleanous harware (binding posts, etc.) at 50€ per unit. Wood or finish is not.

Ok lets go...

The "Optimum"
A bit emphatic as a name (specialy in this forum), but hey...

For this one a special effort is done on the front speakers so that they cover most of the range and give top sound quality. This has to go with trade off on the rears where we chose cheaper options but keeping same driver brands and flavours...

Front
B&C DE250 + RCF H100 (or XT1086 )
Beyma 10G40

Rears
B&C DE10 + B&C ME20 (or XT120... NOT )
Beyma SM108 or 6G40

Front come at 315€, rear at 190€, total budget for 5.0 = 1325€... We are really up to the limit (slightly above actually, as even with a cheap sub, we are likly to overshoot 1600€), but this looks like the best sound quality. As well, we think we are more likely to find some help with speaker that are quite well known in the community.

Drawbacks/questions :
-isn't it going to be "too much sound" in a smallish room ?
-we need to increase the size to 53cm tall and 22cm depth for the front ?
-are we going to get our bucks back from the sound ?

Other little drawback, but I am not sure it is something we want to consider, if we were to try to do something that will be usefull to others, the "expensive" option is not going to make as popular...


The "El Cheapo & El Cheapo"
Everything is in the title... We try to do everything on the cheap side, prying that it does not impact too much the sound quality.

Front
Eminence APT-150 + Eminence Delta-10
OR Monacor MHD-152 + Monacor SPA-25PA (Sebastian ?)

Rears
Eminence APT-150 + Eminence Beta-8
OR Monacor MHD-152 +other Monacor 8' or same 10' if we can fit it.

With the Eminence drives, budget is down to 740€ for 5.0 (up to 870€ if we replace the ATP-150 by DE10+ME20)... Still some money, but 60% of the previous option.


Drawbacks/questions :
- Is it going to sound "half-good" the Optimum option, worse or better than this ?
- SPA25-PA might not be happy with "just" 25l...

Good point is that if we ever succeed making quite decent sound quality with this, it can be quite popular (and we have contributed foir the community !!!).

I am surpised that we have not found existing kit (excatly x-over design) using MHD-152 (or similar)+SPA25-PA, but we have not.

Note, vertical directivity of the MHD-152 might be a problem, but Monacor has other horns similarly priced...


The "Coax-B"
This is a coaxial set up using Beyma 8CX20. One French well known provider of PA/Hifi loudspeakesr and kit made one loudspeeaker with it and it had very good reviews (unfortunately, not sold as a kit).
Caoxail drivers are apparently better for directivity and "sound coherence" but come as well with "a pair of compromises" (lack of real horn, moving cone used as horn, so cannot move this much, just repeating what I have read here and there).

Not many questions except "is it going to sound really good ?" and main drawback is that it is not only one world we do not know (PA & HE), it is as well coaxial speakers.

Budget would be around 1180€ for 5 of them, so not sure there is a massive edge compared to "the Optimum"...


The "El Cheapo-Coax"
Same soup different flavour... and a lot cheaper. The idea came from this CT235 kit from German magazine Klang+Ton (it is to note that CT stands for "Cheap Treak" which seems here a well deserved name). It can apparently by sourced for 139€ each including filter which brings the 5.0 set at a very affordable 700€.

Questions marks :
- quite a few about sound quality ?
- the same about coaxial drivers...
- will it work in 25 litters...


The first option I spoke about (RCF L8S800 + RCF 1411) is probably not worth considering seriously now as it comes out at 1210€, quite close to the optimum package with too much question marks around mating the 1411 to the L8S800...

So these are about the options and to be honest, I am not too sure about the coaxials (but still keep them as some says "it is simpler")... So we are more or less left with "The Optimum" or "El Cheapo & EL Cheapo". It is to note that I have heard good revies about the Monacor/IMG SPA-25PA which apparently has a very good value for the price.

Ok, that's about it fore now, and more than enough food for thought for us...
__________________
Jean-Michel
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2008, 03:32 PM   #13
sek is offline sek  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
sek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Berlin
Good info.

It's been over 260 DIYers reading this topic so far. I'll let it sink in a little before I reply.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2008, 01:29 PM   #14
ttan98 is offline ttan98  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Melb
Default Beyma Drivers

Hi,

I am writing from Australia, I am trying to buy some Beyma drivers from Europe. Some of the places I tried either don't want to sell me or charges too much for postage and poor service.

I wonder anyone here is willing to help me to purchase these drivers. To reduce your risk I am willing to pay you first prior to you placing an order.

Before we proceed further anyone interested please email me, you can get my email address from my profile.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2008, 06:09 AM   #15
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Seb, sinking how deep ?
__________________
Jean-Michel
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2008, 08:58 AM   #16
sek is offline sek  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
sek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Berlin
Like, over the weekend...

It's been like 450 viewers as of this writing, so maybe you're up to something new on this forum!

First of all, what's to say against the L8S800? You seemed to like it in the beginning. Of course it's not like a 10" punch and maximum sound pressure, but we're talking home cinema loudness levels, not concert grade. It's pricey, but comparable 10"ers are, too!

Second of all, you didn't mention the nature of the installation yet. Will it be fixed (as in non-moveable) or semi-fix (as in moved out occasionally for seasonal parties)?

And third of all, what's the requirement set you're ultimatively aiming for? I had casually mentioned THX and the like. Did you set qualitative and quantitative goals for the essential things like SPL(max), coverage angles, rear speaker configuration, etc.?


Quote:
The RCF L8S800 stood out. Marying him with a little RCF ND1411 on a B&C ME20 horn was looking nice and pretty.
With the ND1411 you cannot use the same type of horns. Take a look at the frequency response graphs in it's datasheet and in that of, i.e., the N350. The ND1411 is missing an octave or more (on the HF101), and the L8S800 is not a true midrange driver to compensate for this.

You know that (as you write further down).
So how about using a combination like L8S800/N350 only in the front? Saves overall money and improves the quality of the whole system (as the three front speakers are the only relevant sound sources for perceived tonal quality for music and most movie content) compared to resorting to something less good in all speakers.


Quote:
The "Optimum"

[...]

-isn't it going to be "too much sound" in a smallish room ?
-we need to increase the size to 53cm tall and 22cm depth for the front ?
-are we going to get our bucks back from the sound ?
The Beyma 10G40 is a very well regarded 400W woofer. Five of them inside a room is definitely overkill. It's advantages over the L8S800 would be more bass (which you don't need) and higher SPL(max) (which you don't need, too). And it's around 30 Euro more pricey and requires more box volume than, i.e., the L8S800.

Together with the DE250 and the H100/XT1086 you could get a high-end compact PA solution, but you won't get your bucks back inside your home cinema, as nobody can see the pricey components (or appreciate their superior sound and distortion quality below around 130db(SPL) total inbetween the five boxes).

It'll be just "too much sound", yeah! And I don't even consider it the optimum, btw.


Quote:
The "El Cheapo & El Cheapo"

[...]

- Is it going to sound "half-good" the Optimum option, worse or better than this ?
- SPA25-PA might not be happy with "just" 25l...

I am surpised that we have not found existing kit (excatly x-over design) using MHD-152 (or similar)+SPA25-PA, but we have not.
Monacor components can be surprisingly better than expected. I have no doubt that a Monacor horn and midbass speaker can also be good. It will certainly be close to the above idea at low and medium SPL.

I know of some projects and kits using SPA 12" speakers, as this is the more demanded size for PA tops and small fullrange boxes, but none with the SPA25-PA either.


Quote:
The "Coax-B"

[...]

The "El Cheapo-Coax"
Good coaxial PA speakers are available from some manufacturers, namely the already mentioned Beyma, B&C, RCF and Monacor. Again, the questions of SPL(max) and coverage angle arise.

If the lower excursion limits of coax speakers don't become a limiting factor, they can be a very good idea for a multichannel application. But a couple of drawbacks come together, some already mentioned by you: dispersion, lack of true horn, intermodulation, impossibility to go bipolar, etc.

Are you aware of the Adire HE10.1? I think Dell's, D’Appolito's and Colin's review sums up all advantages and disadvantages of such a construction.

The review also shows that K+T's CT235 was no innovation, as the HE10.1 is from 2001. But maybe the K+T crossover is an improvement, as it also uses a different tweeter. I can't tell.


To sum it all up, rent some good PA speakers and turn up the volume, get the goals set, consider high quality in the front and the right dispersion in the rears, don't forget the bass requirements and don't hesitate to combine different manufacturers (i.e. how about Monacor's SP25-PA with 18Sound's XT1086 and B&C's DE250?).

If I were to do it with what I know about your goals, I would consider Benjamin's MT-181 with the N350 in the front and the CT235 for the rears. But I don't think the goals are set for this already. Or are they?

Cheers,
Sebastian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2008, 08:12 PM   #17
jm_kzo is offline jm_kzo  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Lost all my tesxt in teh middle of a very long post ...

Lost courage for tonight... Will reply tomorrow, sob, sob...
__________________
Jean-Michel
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2008, 12:04 AM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
In my original post,I was going to mention the Adire HE10.1,but to the best of my knowledge,they are no longer available.:-(

I am using a pair for my surround speakers in my HT system,(front is 4 way front loaded horns)and they do a very respectable job for an inexpensive speaker.I think 5 of them would do well for a system that meets your size and price requirements.

The woofer is a Eminence beta 10cx,and the compression driver is a modified Eminence APT-50,I believe.Not sure what the difference is from the stock version.You could use a different tweeter,but then the crossover would probably be needed to be changed,so then you would have a different speaker...

Anyway,the size would be very close to what you need.You can change the box dimensions,as long as the internal volume stays the same.

The Eminence Beta 10cx,APT-50,and the PXB2-3K5 crossover is about $135 USD from partsexpress.com ,plus shipping.If you don't want to risk any more than necessary,just start with one of each to build one speaker,and if it is acceptable,you could get four more.

Of course,a subwoofer is going to be needed.IMHO,a tapped horn will provide the most bang for the buck.Yes,they are big,but can be put in a corner,or placed down on the floor.

here's another link to the plans for the HE10.1

http://stereointegrity.com/Files/HE10-1Plans.pdf
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2008, 08:59 AM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
I forgot to mention in my previous post that a way to keep the cost down without sacrificing quality is to not use a center channel.(you can add one at a later time if you feel you must)

I have yet to hear a center channel that I thought improved the sound over using the phantom mode.The center speaker needs to be identical to the left and right speakers,(most aren't)and there is generally no way to place it properly,unless you have an acoustically transparent screen,with the speaker placed behind it.

If you don't have a front projector,you have no choice but to place the center speaker above or below the picture.The larger the screen,the more it has to be off set.Strange to hear voices coming from the ceiling...or out of the floor...

Anyway,that's my opinion,and something else to think about...
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2008, 09:18 AM   #20
kepa1 is offline kepa1  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Paris
To please sek, I'll direct you to French forums were lots of enthusiasts build their own high efficiency speakers (some with low cost in mind) :
www.cin&son.org (Go to Haut-rendement)
www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ (Go to "Travail de Groupe")
... but I'm sure you're aware of them, aren't you?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Small satellite speakers c3ham Multi-Way 19 8th September 2006 09:07 AM
PC-speakers + small amp (key words: small, cheap) rho Multi-Way 8 18th May 2006 02:19 PM
(very) small speakers... ALFIrE Multi-Way 11 1st July 2004 02:44 PM
Best small speakers sparkle Multi-Way 10 27th May 2004 12:37 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:54 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2