12" woofer advice

[Duck-Twacy]

Hi.
Which 12" woofers would be best for a 60-70 liter BR enclosure in a (active) 3 way speakersystem?

I'm thinking of:
Focal 13W8711
Focal 13K8711
Alcone AC12SW-8 (bit afreight 300 Hz is too high for this one)
Davis 31TCA12W
Visaton TIW360X
Eton 12-680/62HEX

The mid is a 5" focal Kevlar unit (91 dB/w) which should take over around 300 Hz. The bass amp wil be a 50 watt Plinius, so the efficiency of the unit should be good (> 89 dB/w).

What are the pros and cons of these units. What units should I also consider?

 

[Brookeville]

Hey, Duck-Twacy, try this link and have some fun building your sub!
http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/sect-8-woofs.php3#WOOF-15-

Good Luck,
Stan

 

[Duck-Twacy]

Thanks for that link.

Btw it is for a 3 way system, not a sub. It should be capable to do 30-300 Hz (at least).

This one looks very interresting
http://www.flexunits.com/

Flex Unit 12 B 77 25 10
Effective Cone Area 515 Cm2
Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
Resonance Frequence 25 Hz
Equivalent Air Volume 250 Ltrs.
Mecanical Q Factor 2.5
Electrical Q Factor 0.34
Total Q Factor 0.3
Acceleration Factor 203
Nominal Power Handling 250 W
Sensitivity 92 dB
Frequency response 28-1800 Hz
DC resistance 5.4 Ohm
Compliance 0.6733 mm/Nm
Mechanical res. 3.782
VC inductance 0.76 mH
Moving mass 60.20 g
Force factor 12.24
Linear excursion (x-max) 8.6 mm
Max. excursion (P-P) 48 mm

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Probably a bit expensive...

 

[Duck-Twacy]

I requensted the prices of the FlexUnits (you can buy them directly from the manufacterer)

Here the prices for the default units (a piece, in euro):
4" 179
5" 199
6" 277
8" 316
10" 382
12" 424 (77 mm v.c. 170*24 mm magnet)
15" 585 (102 mm v.c. 220*22 mm magnet)

You can choose another size for the voice coil and magnet,
e.g a 12" with a 102 mm v.c. and 200*24mm magnet costs €480.

discounts:
3 - 10 15%
11 - 50 20%
51-100 25%
etc.

I think the cost is reasonable compared to the Focal Audiom range.

With these speakers you can chose the T?S parameters yourself!

 

[thylantyr]

Re: 12" woofer advice

The Lambda TD series is a great
driver for your application, you might
even consider the TD15 instead
of the TD12 since the prices are
almost the same (march sale).

$169 for TD12
$179 for TD15

http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html

I chose the lowest Q version of TD, so
in my case I bought TD15H.

http://www.lambdacoustics.com/

The LE version is not recommended
for you application.

Post #8 and beyond.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11858

 

[Duck-Twacy]

Thanks for the tip (i'm affraid cost after import to holland wil be $100 or more higher).

Btw anybody any comments on this Hi-Vi M12 unit:
http://swanspeaker.com/products/drivers/M/m12/m12_1.htm

Nominal Impedance (Z)(Ù) 4
Resonance Frequency (Fs)(Hz) 27
Nominal Power Handling (Pnom)(W) 150
Sensitivity (2.83v/1m)(dB) 93
Weight (M)(Kg) 8.0
VC Diameter (mm) 50 SV
DC (Re)(Ù) 3.4
VC Length (H)(mm) 24.3
VC Former Kapton
VC Layers 2
Magnet System Outside Ferrite
Force Factor (BL)(TM) 16.8
Gap Height (He)(mm) 10
Linear Excursion (Xmax)(mm) 7.2
Suspension Compliance (Cms)(uM/N) 203.2
Mechanical Q (Qms) 4.87
Electrical Q (Qes) 0.36
Total Q (Qts) 0.33
Moving Mass (Mms)(g) 161.5
Effective Piston Area (Sd)(m2) 0.0531
Equivalent Air Volume (Vas)(L) 81.4
Vented Box Vb=40L,Fb=35Hz
F-3=35Hz

It should give 36 Hz@-3 dB in a 42 liter enclosure. Is it any good??

 

[planet10]

Thanks for the tip (i'm affraid cost after import to holland wil be $100 or more higher).

But you would still be in for less cash than the Skanning. BTW the fellow at Skanning is one of Nick from Lambda's hereos, and the 2 brands probably represent some of the very best drivers you can buy.

dave

 

[Duck-Twacy]

But you would still be in for less cash than the Skanning. BTW the fellow at Skanning is one of Nick from Lambda's hereos, and the 2 brands probably represent some of the very best drivers you can buy.

dave

Hi Dave,
My mail was answered by Per Skaaning, his father Ejvind Skaaning I understood is the founder of Dynaudio and Scan-speak, so I guess the units are the best.

Btw I looked at the Lambda PB12, thats a great driver. It should give 32Hz@-3dB in a 60 liter enclosure. Efficiency is a bit lower (88.6 dB/w). Still very interresting.

Also the Seas W26FX001 looks promissing, it gives an F3 of around 25 HZ in a 90 liter box. Its only 10" ofcourse (and 350 euro a piece).
Chosing a driver is not easy

I like youre TL site.
Ronald.

 

[planet10]

My mail was answered by Per Skaaning, his father Ejvind Skaaning I understood is the founder of Dynaudio and Scan-speak, so I guess the units are the best.

That is true. It is to a large extent his work that brings us the best motors.

I like youre TL site.

Thanx

dave

 

[Duck-Twacy]

Btw I have some very old mags with discriptions of some TDLs (Monitor Compact and RSTL). In German I'm affraid (Klang&Ton).

If you're interrested I could try to scan them.

Maybe this site is also usefull http://www.aos-lautsprecher.de/

 

[thylantyr]

I know you want to build a 3 way, but I think
a 3 way plus seperate subwoofer is the ideal choice.

The Lambda TD12 or TD15 is unbeaten sonically
if you cross it over low pass 300 - 500hz for
your 3 way, plus if you port the box and tune low,
you can get good low end as much as 10mm of xmax
allows.

But, I would still add a monster high excursion
subwoofer, pick a brand as there is many good ones,
as a seperate unit to compliment the 3 way
main system since these type of subwoofers perform
best for low end duty, *if* you need high SPL low end.

The Lambda TD sonics shine as in --> bass guitar, midbass,
and midrange. It's a wide band 10mm xmax woofer (heh),
it plays awesome full range so crossing it over low pass
is a no brainer for this driver at any frequency.

A standard woofer will not do this as well, especially
if you crossover high.

A high excursion "subwoofer" will sound horrible above 70hz-100hz.

The price on TD is $179, down from the normal price
of $259 ea. (march sale price). The Apollo version is normally
$409 US !!

I bought eight Apollos TD15's, worth the ~ $400 I paid.

I wouldn't even consider any other woofer for a 3 way,
it's that good, a steal for $179 (non apollo).

 

[Duck-Twacy]

I know you want to build a 3 way, but I think
a 3 way plus seperate subwoofer is the ideal choice.

The Lambda TD12 or TD15 is unbeaten sonically
if you cross it over low pass 300 - 500hz for
your 3 way, plus if you port the box and tune low,
you can get good low end as much as 10mm of xmax
allows.
...

Hi,
How do you rate the Lambda PB12 (crossed over between 250-300 Hz)?

I dont need very high soundlevels, jus good, tight bass between 30-250/300 Hz. If it can do 100 dB at 30 Hz, that should be enough for me (I have neighbours )

 

[thylantyr]

Hi,
How do you rate the Lambda PB12 (crossed over between 250-300 Hz)?

I dont need very high soundlevels, jus good, tight bass between 30-250/300 Hz. If it can do 100 dB at 30 Hz, that should be enough for me (I have neighbours )

I have not personally tried the PB series. If you need
information, I would ask the question on the madisound.com
forum to see if anyone has thoughts on that series.

Another place of research is the Lambda Acoustics
Yahoo group. You may find usefull information
searching the threads. Nick from Lambda posts
mainly on this message board (nicklambda).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LambdaDrivers/messages

There is some recent discussion on there that may help.

 

[CarMan]

A high excursion "subwoofer" will sound horrible above 70hz-100hz.

I've had some personal experience with these and this is VERY true. The frequency at which it starts to sound bad (loss in transient response, "tight bass") depends on the volume of the room. For car's they can go a bit higher, although not usually above 150-200hz. In a normal size sound room in house, 70-100hz is probably pretty accurate. This depends greatly on the sub though!

I currently have 2 16mm xmax (one way) 12" subs in my car, which can't play good sound above 180hz, and my xover is now set to 160hz. Be aware that I have them set up as a monopole/bipole (like dipole but same phase rather than reversed phase.) which helps the upper end a bit.

 

[planet10]

I've had some personal experience with these and this is VERY true.

I've held similar beliefs. I was quite surprised when a local DIYer posted me this pic. Active XO at 220 Hz... pretty high up for a Shiva (mk 1). He is very pleased with the integration.

dave

 

[Duck-Twacy]

So a Lambda PB12 might not make it upto 300 Hz (in good quality of course)?? I also understood that the large dustcover may also impact the sound at higher frequenties.

I might be able to go down to 200 Hz Xover if I choose a slightly larger mid unit (for instance a Scanspeak), but not much lower.

 

[planet10]

I might be able to go down to 200 Hz Xover if I choose a slightly larger mid unit (for instance a Scanspeak), but not much lower.

A Jordan JX92 would get you that low pretty easily...

dave

 

[Duck-Twacy]

Of course there are middrivers that can go that low (but they must still be able to do 3000 Hz).

My plans for the 3 way system are:
- a 12" woofer (still to be decided) to replace a 10 years old Focal 10" 10N511
- a 5" Focal Kevlar unit (3 years old) 5K413s (may be replaced after some time)
- a Hi-Vi RT2C_A (replacing a Focal T120K)

low/mid active Xover at 300 Hz (or lower)
mid/high passive Xover around 3000 Hz

Bass amp Plinius SA50MKIII
mid/high amp Aleph5 (still in progress)

A possible problem is the integration between the ribbon and the mid unit. The mid unit should be "fast" so the difference with the Hi-Vi is acceptable.

I hope to be able to use my old bass enclosure (66 L build of 30 mm MDF, maybe a little modified e.g extra layer on the baffle)
If not possible, then I'm willing to build a new one up to a 100 L.

If the speaker gives a good 30 Hz I'm satisfied.

 

[vpharris]

That speaker shown in post #15 is made out of a Dahlquist DQ-10 cabinet, no?

 

[Duck-Twacy]

Why can't I delete this??