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Old 8th March 2003, 10:12 PM   #1
tom1356 is offline tom1356  United States
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Default Pioneer TAD TL-1602 sub cabinet sugestions?

If possible I would like to put two of these in one box. I'm starting with a blank sheet of paper. Tall is no problem but floor space is at a premium. ability to fit in a corner is a plus.
How about an el-pipe-o type?
or dipole?
or T-line??
or????
Cost no object, go nuts.
Thanks
Tom

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pi...45,876,00.html
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Old 9th March 2003, 12:55 AM   #2
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Hi Tom,

This may not be quit what youíre looking for, but than again, it may fit the bill for you. Iím using 1601ís as a pair of end tables (They are really in the corners in proximity to the mid-bass and up). There a few good reasons why Iím suggesting something like this for you.

1.)The TAD 1601 & 2 are very efficient and a pair can fill your room at 115db level down into the 25Hz range.

2.)Despite what you may have been told, mono subs negatively effect the image and sound stage. The imaging is much more stable with stereo subs. Even if you x-over below 80Hz with a 24db/octave x-over, you will hear the output a full octave+ into the stop band.

3.)The bass from the TADís is solid and tight even in a ported box. My ďend tablesĒ have a 2í X 2í foot print for a 4.5cu-ft box. I could have just as easily gone more vertical and made a smaller foot print with the same volume box.

4.)I donít have enough experience to tell you what the results would be in a TL or ďEl-Pipe-OĒ configuration.

5.)There are better bass drivers out there, but not a lot

The major down sides of this woofer is the need for equalization.

Your f3 in the ported box will be around 45Hz. In this box it will have a broad bump of about 6db centered around 300+Hz and a slow roll off into the upper 20ís and drop at 24db/octave below fs. I use a bass boost to get an f3 of about 27Hz with flat response to the upper x-over of about 90Hz but these drivers are not made for operation below fs. You must decide whatís low enough for you.

Rodd Yamashita
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Old 9th March 2003, 01:55 AM   #3
tom1356 is offline tom1356  United States
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Rodd
Thanks for the reply. Very nice work! I bet they sound great. I need them to do 100hz and down, wherever that ends up is fine with me.
O.K. so i'll build two.
Would you do anything different now?
I have been told that the measurements on the web site are not accurate.
Do you know where I can get correct t/s measurments so I can use a box building program?
Thanks again.
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Old 9th March 2003, 03:05 AM   #4
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Hi Tom,

I am pretty happy with the TAD's. I am also a bit embarassed to say that I only checked their function and depended on the specs from Bass Box Pro (which are spot on with TAD's) to tune the port. That out of the bag, specs are mostly about alignment and FR in ported boxes anyway. As I said in my last post, these woofers need to be equalized.

As it turned out, I do not regret not having tested them first, particularly since my boxes were already made (I had 12" JBL 124A's in them for 20 years). If you have one of the box design programs you can play with box size and tuning. You'll see that FR is the most effected, but the quality and character of these drivers will show through a little misalignment. I wouldn't be real concerned about a % or two of misalignment. These drivers will also change a little as they break-in. There has been some change in the sound of the TAD's over the past year. They are more dynamic then when they were new. The kick drum used to be a bit muted, but now are very "present" and... well, dynamic.

It is on my list to test them but I have to get a good mic first. When I do, I may re-tune the box/port, but that would be all. After all, flat response on a graph is a completely different issue then flat response in a room, particularly in the bass region. It really is about how they sound.

Rodd Yamashita
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Old 9th March 2003, 06:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Pioneer TAD TL-1602 sub cabinet sugestions?

Quote:
Originally posted by tom1356
If possible I would like to put two of these in one box. I'm starting with a blank sheet of paper. Tall is no problem but floor space is at a premium. ability to fit in a corner is a plus.
How about an el-pipe-o type?
or dipole?
or T-line??
or????
Cost no object, go nuts.
Thanks
Tom

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pi...45,876,00.html
The TAD drivers are great and all, but I wonder if you'd be better served with some secondhand JBL Pro drivers for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, and building a tall corner enclosure to house a number of them per channel. Low bass is about volume displacement, and 3 or 4 2235s would move a lot more air cleaner than the TAD for similar money. I'd also go for a sub per channel.

If you here going to use them up to 500Hz, then I'd be more inclined to look at the TAD. The TAD also has an extremely low Qts which will make it more difficult to get a suitable alignment I think (I haven't run the numbers)
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Old 9th July 2003, 12:25 AM   #6
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by roddyama
Hi Tom,

This may not be quit what youíre looking for, but than again, it may fit the bill for you. Iím using 1601ís as a pair of end tables (They are really in the corners in proximity to the mid-bass and up). There a few good reasons why Iím suggesting something like this for you.

1.)The TAD 1601 & 2 are very efficient and a pair can fill your room at 115db level down into the 25Hz range.

2.)Despite what you may have been told, mono subs negatively effect the image and sound stage. The imaging is much more stable with stereo subs. Even if you x-over below 80Hz with a 24db/octave x-over, you will hear the output a full octave+ into the stop band.

3.)The bass from the TADís is solid and tight even in a ported box. My ďend tablesĒ have a 2í X 2í foot print for a 4.5cu-ft box. I could have just as easily gone more vertical and made a smaller foot print with the same volume box.

4.)I donít have enough experience to tell you what the results would be in a TL or ďEl-Pipe-OĒ configuration.

5.)There are better bass drivers out there, but not a lot

The major down sides of this woofer is the need for equalization.

Your f3 in the ported box will be around 45Hz. In this box it will have a broad bump of about 6db centered around 300+Hz and a slow roll off into the upper 20ís and drop at 24db/octave below fs. I use a bass boost to get an f3 of about 27Hz with flat response to the upper x-over of about 90Hz but these drivers are not made for operation below fs. You must decide whatís low enough for you.

Rodd Yamashita
What in your openion are better sub bass drivers? (for an active 4-way design). Thanks.
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Old 9th July 2003, 12:56 AM   #7
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Hi Amo,

I have to make a few assumptions of what your requirements are, but based on the content of my quote and your comment of it being a 4-way active system I would say that cost and space are not big issues. You would want to look at this site for Mr. Pass and Kentís El-Pipe-O at: http://passdiy.com/

Thereís not going to be a lot of music below 40Hz if your listening to R&R or Jazz. Even classical will bottom out around 25Hz (27Hz is the lowest note of the grand piano). So unless your into HT or organ music an f3 in the 25 to 30Hz range would do quite well. You can also check out the Adire site at: http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/...dire/adire.htm

Both the El-Pipe-O and the larger Adire woofers are extreme woofers. Weíre talkiní 15Hz at 100db+. That will send you home to change your pants.
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Old 9th July 2003, 01:13 AM   #8
OMNIFEX is offline OMNIFEX  Jamaica
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tom1356,

Keep in mind there are TONS of 15's available in the market.

I don't know how much the TAD cost, but, I would suggest
before you purchase them to explore other brands within
the same price point, compare the TS Parameters, and,
see which one will give you the best response.


Good Luck.
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Old 9th July 2003, 03:29 AM   #9
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by roddyama
Hi Amo,

I have to make a few assumptions of what your requirements are, but based on the content of my quote and your comment of it being a 4-way active system I would say that cost and space are not big issues. You would want to look at this site for Mr. Pass and Kentís El-Pipe-O at: http://passdiy.com/

Thereís not going to be a lot of music below 40Hz if your listening to R&R or Jazz. Even classical will bottom out around 25Hz (27Hz is the lowest note of the grand piano). So unless your into HT or organ music an f3 in the 25 to 30Hz range would do quite well. You can also check out the Adire site at: http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/...dire/adire.htm

Both the El-Pipe-O and the larger Adire woofers are extreme woofers. Weíre talkiní 15Hz at 100db+. That will send you home to change your pants.
Thanks for the info. As far as my requirements... I figured since I am doing a full range system, I will make it really full range. Besides, I do listen to quite a bit of electronic music, which at times can have very low bass, though not as often as one would immagine... I think what is really important to me in a low end driver is lack of distortion, since you can not mask it no matter what you do. I am also hoping that I could use two (maybe three?) 10 inch drivers as apposed to a 15, so that the enclosure can be slim and tall... Although if such drivers will not solve my problem, I will use what I must, even an 18. I am really trying to find a very high quality driver under $1,500 that will play as low as possible only as high as 150 Hz (probably lower then that). I understand that this price range is overkill and I could get something good for less, but I do not want to exclude any exceptional (sp?) candidates.
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Old 9th July 2003, 03:34 AM   #10
amo is offline amo  United States
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Rodd-

Is that a horn I see in the picture? How is the sound of that compared to something conventional. I was on the TED site, and noticed their $2.2k copression drivers and $2.5k horns, and though, wow, from 600hz and up... I wander how that sounds. Is the resolution good? Is distortion low?
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