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Old 16th March 2010, 09:58 PM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Quite similar thoughts about loudspeakers as Stig Carlsson: Reflections that merge with the direct sound, especially coming from the same direction as the speakers are bad, and the remaining reflections should have a spectrum that is closer to that of the direct sound.
The best way to achieve that is using additional speakers.

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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
But what I find extremely strange is the claim that in-wall placement causes a 6 dB gain. Every DIY beginner should know that moving the speaker away from the wall causes a 6 dB loss.
Where's the contradiction? Sound pressure goes up by 6dB when radiating in half space.
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:24 PM   #722
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It was some 20 years ago when I first placed a loudspeaker with the back on the floor after reading Peter Pfleiderer's book "HiFi auf den Punkt gebracht".
I see, so this is "all that" You have tried?

You have placed "a" loudspeaker ("a" loudspeaker that is "a loudspeaker not meant for such placement"?) with the back on the floor? no single way or anything coincident at least, no Beveridge placement, neither anything resembling the Carlssons

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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
You can read about his "philosophy" under "Acoustics" here: Peter M. Pfleiderer phase minimal recording techniques
But there is nothing even alluding to a ceiling flooder or any similar concept and statements regarding early reflections are actually pretty standard, "old school", not like Toole or Moulton for example

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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
He once sold speakers that were aimed to the ceiling.
Strange, I can see no trace of it in the writings You have linked to, not even slightest allusion.
I would even say that anything aimed to the ceiling seems not to fit in Herr Pfleiderer sound philosophy at all. Did He recommended to place them ideally 1.5 away from the walls and at least 80 cm above the floor? Such recommendation I can read in the linked writings of Him.

I like what He writes about the need of waveform fidelity and consequently using time coherent coincident speaker, and also about bassreflex and so on.

But regarding room-speaker interface I cannot see any similarities to my propositions.

I also think that His arguments about early reflections <4 ms as degrading waveforms are based on misunderstanding. His speaking of "phase" suggests that He used steady state signals as reference. In my opinion use of steady state signals is misguiding in this context because speech and music is 100% of transient character.
Human hearing analyses transients in time domain and resolution of this analysis reaches tens of MICROseconds.

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graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 16th March 2010 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:28 PM   #723
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Where's the contradiction? Sound pressure goes up by 6dB when radiating in half space.
The truth is that you need compensation for a free-standing speaker, not for an in-wall speaker.
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:32 PM   #724
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
Strange, I can see no trace of it in the writings You have linked to, not even slightest allusion.
I think Markus means these extra tweeters that shall compensate the treble loss of the reflections.
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:33 PM   #725
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
But what I find extremely strange is the claim that in-wall placement causes a 6 dB gain.
but it does, it is true

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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Every DIY beginner should know that moving the speaker away from the wall causes a 6 dB loss.
actually it is more complicated, fortunately for us there is a simple spreadsheet written by Roy Allison:
Other | The Classic Speaker Pages
under "Bestplace Speaker Placement program by RDL, Inc., version 1.0"

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graaf
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:41 PM   #726
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
What is sacrificed is localization and focus, if present on the
recording. Think of transients from drums and cymbals ... and
the consonants of the human voice.

After having sacrificed that you get robustness as you need
not listen in a sweet spot anymore, because there is no place
in the room - not even a spot - where those qualities are present.
overall interesting analysis but the above quoted statements are simply false with regard to my ceiling flooder

localization and focus of transient sounds like drums, cymbals and
consonants is actually quite stunning, to say simply realistic would be injustice to what I can hear, stunning is the right word

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graaf
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:50 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
The truth is that you need compensation for a free-standing speaker, not for an in-wall speaker.
Depends on how you look at it. How does a drivers frequency response look in 2π or 4π space? What needs to be compensated for? At lower frequencies direct and reflected sound becomes one - where to draw the line?
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:52 PM   #728
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
I think Markus means these extra tweeters that shall compensate the treble loss of the reflections.
oh yes, I can it see now

anyway it is more Carlsson approach (all those multiple tweeters aiming all around) than a ceiling flooder

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graaf
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:55 PM   #729
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
when I listen to eg. Mala Punica I can hear church acoustics
I hesitated to confess I have that CD. I just dug it out for testing. Technically as bad as musically. Maybe it was recorded in a church, but I am very sure there were no stereo microphones used.
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when I listen to Klaus Schulze I can hear His imaginary spaces floating all around
I had almost forgotten I have a CD from him. That's really hardcore-diffuse. Long, long ago that I listened to it last time, but from my memory I would prefer it with the Spendor BC1.
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Old 16th March 2010, 11:04 PM   #730
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[another 10 million words]
You questioned my experience in an unkind manner so I linked Pfleiderer to show you that all these ideas and practices are not new to me. His book - I still have it - introduces a couple of ideas that he dumped later on. So did Moulton, Carlsson, etc. That's just how this audiphool circus works.
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