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Old 16th March 2010, 04:28 PM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Markus, I just wanted to say when we talk about our listening experiences we don't talk about ideal concepts, so we should better not use their names in an unreflected way. I was not happy from the beginning of this thread on that Graaf used the word "omnidirectional" or "omni", and strictly speaking it is also not correct when you use the term "constant directivity".
In fact I didn't use the wording constant directivity. I used controlled directivity. But we're going round in circles again.


Do we know what dominates tonality and spatial attributes of sound reproduction in acoustically small rooms with loudspeakers?
Yes, the direct frequency response and the number, loudness, angle, spectrum and delay of room reflections.

Do we know how to quantify these properties?
Yes.

Do we know how to qualify them?
No.

Best, Markus
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Old 16th March 2010, 06:14 PM   #712
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Do we know how to qualify them?
No.
yes, so much for reading fat folios from German academics (with all due respect), profound AES papers (with all due respect), deep theorizing (with all due respect) and ... so on

unless You try it for Yourself You don't know much

the proof of the pudding is in the eating as goes the saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Poor Graaf. Most people will rather invest an hour to tell you it canīt work than five minutes to test it themselves.
an hour?! how about TWO YEARS!

I started this thread 15th April 2008

yeah, whatever


---------------------------------------------------

this is not OT - please do not remove it
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Last edited by graaf; 16th March 2010 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 16th March 2010, 06:32 PM   #713
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Well, you simply ignore the fact that I have tried all of that and still don't think it is the right thing to do.
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Old 16th March 2010, 07:32 PM   #714
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Well, you simply ignore the fact that I have tried all of that and still don't think it is the right thing to do.
how can I ignore a fact not made known to me? because You never nowhere in this thread stated before that You had tried ceiling flooder in Beveridge or corner placement or any of Carlssons speakers

this is something new that You have tried "all of that" is discussed in this thread, and of course I cannot ignore it

I am surprised - that is all I can say
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Last edited by graaf; 16th March 2010 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 16th March 2010, 07:40 PM   #715
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It was some 20 years ago when I first placed a loudspeaker with the back on the floor after reading Peter Pfleiderer's book "HiFi auf den Punkt gebracht". You can read about his "philosophy" under "Acoustics" here: Peter M. Pfleiderer phase minimal recording techniques

He once sold speakers that were aimed to the ceiling.

Last edited by markus76; 16th March 2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:11 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Markus, I think your stuff is controlled directivity as much as our stuff is omni. Ever wondered what happens below 1.5 kHz? Do you think all your reflecting surfaces (you have them, too, yes, really) get the same spectrum as the direct sound?
A true omni is a constant directivity
- or if you want the weaker term -
controled directivity source too.

The ceiling flooder does not seem to mimic an omnidirectional source,
but a source having increasing directivity with frequency thereby
using the ceiling as a reflector to indroduce diffusivity.

The direct sound even falls off with rising frequency.

If equalized to compensate the - usually falling with frequency -
overall radiated power into the room this may lead to a balanced
frequency response in a wide area of the room.

The delay introduced may contribute to a notion of "depth" which may
be nice with some recordings.

What is sacrificed is localization and focus, if present on the
recording. Think of transients from drums and cymbals ... and
the consonants of the human voice.

After having sacrificed that you get robustness as you need
not listen in a sweet spot anymore, because there is no place
in the room - not even a spot - where those qualities are present.

Some of those systems try to save some focus by delivering a minimum
amount of directed sound to the listener e.g. by a tweeter or a
fullranger additionally radiating towards the listener utilizing precedence
effect.

To make a speaker less room dependent and deliver balanced frequency
response in a variety of listening rooms, controled - if not constant
- directivity is IMO a major goal to achieve.

Of course such a speaker my have a problem to disappear itself
as a detectable sound source, especially if the spatial information
of the recording is deficient or the recording has significant flaws
as sybilance and the like.

The "controled directivity highly direct radiating speaker" is more
revealing concerning concerning those deficiencies and for that
reason may not be the optimal choice for some listeners, which
prefer beeing "enveloped" in the music and like put a distance
between themselves and the properties of different styles of recording
and the reproduction device itself.

I do not want to restrict that to "by the way" listeners, it is just a
certain type of enjoyful listener.

To have the best of both worlds - lets call them 'analytical' and
'ambient' - seems difficult.

Since experimenting with DML i know that both worlds can be mated
to a degree nearly impossible with conventional speakers.

But i am still working on that, sometimes missing the 'localization' and 'focus'
dimension to some degree. But especially for the type of enjoyful
listener i tried to descibe above, this is for shure an alternative, even
in the recent available state of the technology.

For the 'analytical' ones there seems still work to be done on DML,
but i am convinced those can be statisfied too as time has come.
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Last edited by LineArray; 16th March 2010 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:27 PM   #717
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I've heard that there's a brand new technology around the corner called "surround sound". It uses additional speakers that can be used to radiate reflections from any auditory space. Now that would be a real improvement, wouldn't it
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:33 PM   #718
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Even surround sound is not wavefield synthesis.
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:37 PM   #719
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Wave field synthesis in music reproduction? That will never happen.
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Old 16th March 2010, 09:48 PM   #720
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It was some 20 years ago when I first placed a loudspeaker with the back on the floor after reading Peter Pfleiderer's book "HiFi auf den Punkt gebracht". You can read about his "philosophy" under "Acoustics" here: Peter M. Pfleiderer phase minimal recording techniques
Quite similar thoughts about loudspeakers as Stig Carlsson: Reflections that merge with the direct sound, especially coming from the same direction as the speakers are bad, and the remaining reflections should have a spectrum that is closer to that of the direct sound.
But what I find extremely strange is the claim that in-wall placement causes a 6 dB gain. Every DIY beginner should know that moving the speaker away from the wall causes a 6 dB loss.
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