You still want the mains to cross in front of the listener because this reduces the level of lateral reflections.
Furthermore multichannel recordings often don't make use of a center channel but rely on a phantom center.
Best, Markus
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I agree with Markus.
Center channels are great if 1) they are exactly the same as the mains and 2) they are placed dead center at the same level as the mains. This means that they have to be right where the picture is in a HT. This can only be done with an acoustically transparent screen and a projector. Otherwise use phantom mode. I make a custom center channel speaker crossover which is adjusted for axial response as opposed to off axis. I am installing Harpers in my theater as we speak for the surrounds, thats what they were design to do.
Center channels are great if 1) they are exactly the same as the mains and 2) they are placed dead center at the same level as the mains. This means that they have to be right where the picture is in a HT. This can only be done with an acoustically transparent screen and a projector. Otherwise use phantom mode. I make a custom center channel speaker crossover which is adjusted for axial response as opposed to off axis. I am installing Harpers in my theater as we speak for the surrounds, thats what they were design to do.
Thanks Markus! Perhaps I used the wrong word there. The lateral reflections I was referring to are the ones that hit my left ear from my left wall, but come from the speaker on m right. Perhaps contralateral would be a batter word.
Thanks Dr. Geddes! I was just having this discussion on another board and said the same thing. That's where I'm at then, phantom center.
Dan
Thanks Dr. Geddes! I was just having this discussion on another board and said the same thing. That's where I'm at then, phantom center.
Dan
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are effects of front/back/ceiling/floor eflections discussed in detail?
Here some marketing agenda of Harman is to be seen IMHO, this multichannel is good for speaker business
here is something more of a Toole's own view:
Matrix Surround for Music
best regards!
graaf
Note that I have said vertical dispersion should be narrow unless something else is done WRT interaction of speakers with floor and ceiling
what is done in the case of the flooder with floor reflection
- it is effectively low-passed because of the directivity of the speaker in an enclosure and because of geometry of such a setup (check angles if incidence and reflection) - it can be said that from perspective of VERs (of how they are defined) there is no early reflection off the floor in case of the flooder
then what is done in the case of the flooder with ceiling reflection
- it is delayed twice as much as in case of conventional setup, by seating on a shorter armchair/sofa and/or by moving a bit closer to the speaker it can be delayed beyond the worst 10 ms, something that cannot be done with conventional setup without ceiling deflectors (certainly not something to be found in a typical listening room)
honestly I don't know what to think of this ceiling reflection
WRT floor reflection its effects are researched and known but this is not the case of ceiling reflection
My hypothesis is that it is ignored by the brain for purposes of sound localization at all, it adds only to the perceived loudness and affects timbre
why? because there was no equivalent of ceiling reflection during millions of years of biological evolution of our sense of hearing
just hypothesis of course
best,
graaf
BIG thanks el`Ol! it's helpful and very kind of You
interesting quotations, especially those:
el`Ol said:
interesting, at last an attempt at some theoretical explanation in favor of wide dispersion, apart from the disputed question of spaciousness
el`Ol said:
The natural concern that wide dispersion and the attendant strong early reflections “would lead to degraded stereo imaging was not confirmed...
Spaceousness should… be an aspect of the final reproduction environment...
a popular explanation, and it sounds reasonable, but experiments...
How about that!
*I wonder what Newell and Holland meant by largely? And what tests exactly is their conclusion based upon?
And how can they at the same time conclude that "spaceousness should… be an aspect of the final reproduction environment"? Are they denying audiophiles the resolution of fine details?
Tell me please - is there anything in this book that speaks against the flooder idea?
Any statement from Toole that supports all those statements that have been posted here in this thread, about disasters and crazy schemes?
anything at all?
best regards!
graaf
To put it shortly - WRT omnis or dipoles You have heard perhaps it is true but is is absolutely untrue WRT the flooders
somehow consistently different from conventional stereo – yes, but each and every recording sounds the same – absolutely not, it is rather true in case of conventional stereo where each and every recording sounds more or less flat and 2D
best,
graaf
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well, they are definitely not doing this
The truth is that You have just no idea how it sounds because You haven't heard it
best,
graaf
And you haven't heard what Marcus and I are talking about either, so that makes it a stalmate on the subjective aspects and all we can do is to talk about the objective ones. There I don't think that there is much of a contest.
Hello,
Well, but then there were no rooms in savannah so we are not evolutioned to hear any wall reflections either In evolutionary sense a human is mainly a direct sound observer, and in case where room reflections are present the brain is confused. But the confusion does not completely prevent interpreting the direct sound. Only requirement for non-fatique listening is to have clear direct sound and long enough time before room reflections come to disturb.
A DIY friendly choice is to borrow the book from the city library! For free! Come on guys, why you allways want to pay for a basic human right like accessing information.
The symphonic situation will not be improved by any recording or loudspeaker directivity issue. It's because the main thing in symphonic (or chamber music) is the sense of the hall! The envelopement. That is not possible with any 2 speaker set up, but one needs extra speakers to create the "surround field".
The wide dispersion speakers help to overcome this fact. BUT in my opinion the diepersion should be wide only at high frequencies above 1kHz or so. Below 1kHz directivity should be as narrow as possible to overcome the room.
LOL And you are not?
I agree with this, but I'll rise an issue with "channels" since not necessarily more media channels are needed, but just more loudspeakers and some signal processing therein.
- Elias
Well, but then there were no rooms in savannah so we are not evolutioned to hear any wall reflections either
In evolutionary sense a human is mainly a direct sound observer, and in case where room reflections are present the brain is confused. But the confusion does not completely prevent interpreting the direct sound. Only requirement for non-fatique listening is to have clear direct sound and long enough time before room reflections come to disturb. A DIY friendly choice is to borrow the book from the city library! For free! Come on guys, why you allways want to pay for a basic human right like accessing information.
The symphonic situation will not be improved by any recording or loudspeaker directivity issue. It's because the main thing in symphonic (or chamber music) is the sense of the hall! The envelopement. That is not possible with any 2 speaker set up, but one needs extra speakers to create the "surround field".
The wide dispersion speakers help to overcome this fact. BUT in my opinion the diepersion should be wide only at high frequencies above 1kHz or so. Below 1kHz directivity should be as narrow as possible to overcome the room.
LOL
And you are not? I agree with this, but I'll rise an issue with "channels" since not necessarily more media channels are needed, but just more loudspeakers and some signal processing therein.
- Elias
Well I completely disagree with that, but I know that. I could never agree that "the main thing" is the hall, as if the playing and the direct field were insignificant. That is, IMO, ridiculous. The hall "adds" to the performance, but it is NOT the performance.
No not really. Floyd had bosses, I do not. Floyd came to work at JBL and the products already existed, he did not design them. I did the designs for my speakers long before I was ever a manufacturer. Hence, my speakers reflect my beliefs not the other way arround. It's a vastly different situation. And, for what its worth, selling loudspeakers has virtually no impact on my income - it is mostly derived from other "profitable" sources.
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Did a little test: Mono sum of music stereo track, split to left and right channel, high pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on left channel, low pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on right channel.
When listening with the head turned 90°, so one speaker acts as a floor speaker and the other one as a ceiling speaker, all sounds are localized in the high pass filtered speaker, even when that speaker is delayed (tested delays up to 10ms).
Second observation: timbre was not affected.
This gives hints why the sound of a ceiling flodder is neither necessarily colorized nor localized at the floor. But then again, why not just use regular loudspeakers?
To gain a better understanding, the test should be repeated with the two channels filtered in a way that matches the response characteristics of a typical ceiling flodder. Who could provide that information?
Best, Markus
When listening with the head turned 90°, so one speaker acts as a floor speaker and the other one as a ceiling speaker, all sounds are localized in the high pass filtered speaker, even when that speaker is delayed (tested delays up to 10ms).
Second observation: timbre was not affected.
This gives hints why the sound of a ceiling flodder is neither necessarily colorized nor localized at the floor. But then again, why not just use regular loudspeakers?
To gain a better understanding, the test should be repeated with the two channels filtered in a way that matches the response characteristics of a typical ceiling flodder. Who could provide that information?
Best, Markus
Have you ever listened symphony orchestra playing in anechoich space? Otherwise you don't know what you are talking about.
There is no performance without the hall.
Denon made an anechoich symphonic recording:
Anechoic Orchestral Music Recording
WAV files:
Index of /Public/Anecoic/Denon
Listen to that first.
There is no performance without the hall.
Denon made an anechoich symphonic recording:
Anechoic Orchestral Music Recording
WAV files:
Index of /Public/Anecoic/Denon
Listen to that first.
Is this true only for having the highpassed speaker above and the lowpassed speaker below? And what is the crossover frequency where the situation changes?
Your rudness is becoming annoying and I am done talking with you.
And yes I have heard orchestras outdoors dozens of times. It still sounds like an orchestra.
No, it just depends on where the high pass filtered speaker is placed.
Would have to test specifically for that. At this point I'm more interested in real world data. Is 6dB@1000Hz realistic for a full range driver, e.g. Visaton B200?
Dr. Geddes, if I have read the thread carefully enough you still haven't said how and where you would record symphonic music for ideal playback with a narrow-beam stereo setup. I have heard a full-scale orchestra outdoors only once, but I think I can say it doesn't sound like a recording in a "hifi concert hall" on narrow beam speakers.
You folks could have some fun here:
UCSD's Conrad Prebys Music Center chooses Meyer Sound Constellation
Sheldon
UCSD's Conrad Prebys Music Center chooses Meyer Sound Constellation
Sheldon
I am not a recording engineer and wouldn't pretend to know how to record an orchestra. The reasons for a narrow beam playback would be true no matter what the recording is or how it was recorded. Its simply that if one wants to remove the negative effects of a small room without elliminating the local spacial ambiance then the only choice is narrow directivity. You can increase the spaciousness with wide directivity speakers and/or many more early reflections, but this accentuate the problems with small rooms, most noticably the imaging. If you want good imaging and good spaciuosness simultaneously then you have to use a speaker/room combination that surpresses the very early reflection while accentuating the later ones. I know of only one way to do this.
The point about the orchestra outdoors was not that it was ideal or desirable only that the room IS NOT the major effect - the orchestra still sounded fine and some people even like the effect. The hall is not the dominate factor at all - its an additive accent that adds a quite pleasing effect.