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Old 26th February 2010, 06:02 AM   #591
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The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of an OB woofer unless it's used for mastering. Above 300Hz or so, we hear through the room. This system is as close to ideal as I've ever heard. Resistance is futile.

Laughing like a maniac drunk off cheap Scotch (Lismore NAS),

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Last edited by dantheman; 26th February 2010 at 06:11 AM. Reason: inc
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Old 26th February 2010, 06:24 AM   #592
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
There's nothing to decide. These two topics are not mutually exclusive.
quite the contrary

because You admit it Yourself that "we don't know yet" how "sound field" translates into "audible":

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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Since Blauert introduced the term "auditory event", science tries to understand how our perception of sound relates to the physical properties of sound fields - we still try.
so how can You at the same time insist that:

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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
In the light of facts only one approach is reasonable: make the sound field...
and so on

what facts? Do we know those facts or are is it just guessing or hit-and-miss because "we don't know yet"

You cannot maintain at the same time that:
1) we don't know - I understand "know facts" because what else can we possibly know?
and
2) that only one approach is reasonable in the light of facts - I understand "known facts" because what can we possibly do in the light of "unknown facts"?

therefore I ask You to decide
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Old 26th February 2010, 06:35 AM   #593
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
I put together some drivers that would achieve something like constant directivity from 1kHz to 20kHz (I couldn't reasonably build better)and aimed them to cross in front of me by about a meter so that the lateral reflection would hit my opposite ear judging by and of incidence equals the angle of reflection.
what You describe is actually rather an old idea (advocated for years by eg. Ted Jordan*) than Dr Geddes' approach, which is much more sophisticated and the requirements of which are much more demanding

*Carlsson approach also incorporates (i.a.) this idea of crossing well before the listener and of opposite reflection

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Last edited by graaf; 26th February 2010 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 26th February 2010, 06:46 AM   #594
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
Like when you "see" the musicians placed at same height as you when you sit listening
You've got patience!
Explaining what is (should be) obvious for every audiophile...

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Whether thats correct is debateable, but its the only option we can perceive as acceptable
yes, You are right, it is not necessarily correct but it is at least something achievable and expected, especially in a conventional stereo setup where the perception of height is restricted (perhaps I should rather say "ruined") by dominant floor reflection

What happens to the perception of height when You stand up? Do the phantom sources stay where thhey were ie. "lower" or do they somewhat "stand up" with You?
I experience the latter - just like in case of line sources - the level -/0/+ of the soundstage is always at the ear-height regardless where the ear is

but perhaps the crucial factor in this is that I am more than 4 metres away from the speakers that additionally are directional at the highs - and the nearer and the less directional the speakers the less of this effect I would expect because of the unmasking of the speakers' real position in the room

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But to me, the source of sound, meaning the musician, should always be placed accurately, and pin pointed
And I mean ALL musicians in a band
Are You trying to tell Markus that You have pin-pointed phantom sources from an omni laying on the floor? How dare You?!!
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Last edited by graaf; 26th February 2010 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 26th February 2010, 07:12 AM   #595
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
If you like the sound coming from the floor...
sound coming from the floor?

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"
- sound reproduction philosophy
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Old 26th February 2010, 07:15 AM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
But to me, the source of sound, meaning the musician, should always be placed accurately, and pin pointed
And I mean ALL musicians in a band
The more prominent transients a sound has the better it can be localized. That's the same with speakers as with reality. There were experiments where after the initial trasient the following purely periodic part was shifted and the perceived localization stayed the same.
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Old 26th February 2010, 07:15 AM   #597
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After putting these parts together and listening to CDs and DVDs it seems to me that more DVDs are probably mastered on speakers like these and music CDs are probably not. I don't really know how true that is, but every DVD I've played on these has sounded perfect where avery CD has required a bit of EQ. Most CDs sound a bit bright. Maybe things will change as I get to play more, but I'm 8 CDs and 2 DVDs into it. I'd try more DVDs, but I'm having too much fun listening. Give me a few daze. Standardization sure seems like a great idea. Break the circle of confusion!

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Old 26th February 2010, 11:12 AM   #598
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Sorry accidently answererd in an old but related thread:

The Objectives of a Loudspeaker in a Small Room
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Old 26th February 2010, 12:07 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
what facts?
We don't know enough about our hearing in order to objectively define optimal sound reproduction. On the other hand we have fully operational sound reproduction techniques.

So looking at the room and the speaker is a step forward but looking at recording, mixing, loudspeaker and the room makes up the whole picture.
That's probably why Bob does not agree with the soundstage of speakers with low directivity. Did you already ask him about his post at Gearslutz?
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Old 26th February 2010, 12:13 PM   #600
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Sorry accidently answererd in an old but related thread:

The Objectives of a Loudspeaker in a Small Room
it was in this older thread where it became obvious to me that the title question was incomplete, and that led me to starting this thread

because the real practical question is "objectives of loudspeaker in a given placement in a given, typical (=acoustically untreated) listening room"

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Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Timeframes in that range seem to form an "acoustical context" in
perception. If early reflections are present in that context, the image
of original sounds is blurred from

distortion to
coloration to
change in the perception of the "sound event space" (Schallerignisraum)

in order of the time delay of the reflections.
in order only of the time delay? what about intensity, angle and spectral content of reflections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
The VER Range <5ms is related to the design of the
loudspeakers structure (enclosure) itself:
yes, mainly, but not exclusively - floor, ceiling reflection are typically also within the range of <5 ms, and very often front and sidewall reflections also - unless the loudspeakers are not moved well into the room away from the walls - which is the case in most rooms which are typically living rooms or second/third bedrooms (guest bedrooms) and as such are not dedicated to music listening exclusively

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Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
There are only 2 possibilities to keep reflections out of the
10 ms range:
1. Directivity (as constant as possible) of the speaker or

(...)

Strategy 1 leads to a speaker which is less room dependent.
A less room dependent speaker is the better speaker, especially
if a minimum distance cannot be kept.
can we say that my proposition from the first post falls into this category?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
When comparing the concert hall sound field with that of the small home
listening room we have a major problem:

We want an image of the (high quality) sound field of the concert hall
(or virtual sound event space) to be placed in the acoustical small room.

If the job where the other way round, the task would be much easier ...
I am not sure if this is principal problem. And Moulton says something completely to the contrary:

Quote:
DRM: Yup. And for me the final proof is in the pudding. I have very wide dispersion speakers in a very wet, large room. Intuitively, you'd say that has to be the worst possible setup.

Yet a mastering engineer, Bob Ludwig, said it was fabulous when he came to listen. I've had similar experiences as well. One major loudspeaker designer had to check that the center speaker was off, because in 2-channel stereo the imaging was so good that he couldn't believe he was hearing a phantom.

NB: Is there any reason that wouldn't hold as true in smaller rooms?

DRM: No, it should get better in small rooms.
from: Moulton Laboratories :: Nick Batzdorf Interviews David Moulton

best regards,
graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 26th February 2010 at 12:18 PM.
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