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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:29 PM   #531
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
We are talking about pinpoint localization. It is something that is very real.
yes, in the snow-covered field, indeed very real

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I don't like the adjective "pin point" I think it is very misleading

because we can ask - how much is it "pin point"? of the size of the pin?
are the singers or any instruments "pin size"? etc.
of course not
I assume that by "pin point" You mean "precise".
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well, maybe it all boils down to a question how "pin point" is "pin point"?

to make myself clear - I don't know the experience of other contributors to this thread but loudspeaker and set ups I write about here give me precise imaging, not uncomfortably "diffuse" nor "vague" at all
not at all "un-pinpoint" in any negative sense

and absolutely more realistic the standard stereo - occupying a real space, 3D, very palpable images
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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:36 PM   #532
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Me Did you read Bob's book?
Not yet. I was about to order it, when I heard about the second edition, so I waited. I seem to recall I was quoted in it - or it might have been another publication, I'll have to check my mail logs. (Memory is the second thing to go with age. I forget what the first one was.)
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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:44 PM   #533
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elias, graaf

Do you guys sometimes listen to natural sound sources with your eyes closed? Do you really never experience a high degrees of "locatedness"? I do.

And please stop narrowing down audio reproduction to music recordings only.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:51 PM   #534
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Well, actually I think the cause relations are not so clear. I mean the reason WHY we perceive phantom images is unknown to the science. As I explained in the lion example stereophonic phantom imaging does not benefit evolution. Instead it is a detrimental phenomena for the survival! You cannot afford perceiving any phantom lions if you need to run!

That is, stereo is flaved since it is based on something that is not stable and not the primary function of the human hearing. The primary function of human sound localization would be to localize the sound source, that is the speakers and BOTH of them simultaneously. But stereo tries to achieve totally the opposite, hide the speakers.

If stereo (name should be changed because it wouldn't be stereo anymore) would be based on some other aspects of human hearing than phantom imaging, maybe we could call it something else than an illusion

- Elias

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yes, exactly therefore the trick works!
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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:53 PM   #535
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"pin point" ... "pin point" ... pin ... "pin size" ... "pin point" ... "pin point" is "pin point"
The degrees of image focus is highly variable in stereo recordings. No need for omni speakers to experience that. You probably want to describe something else but don't know how?

Wittek's PhD thesis is (still) an interesting read: http://hauptmikrofon.de/HW/Wittek_thesis_201207.pdf
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Old 23rd February 2010, 09:58 PM   #536
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
elias, graaf

Do you guys sometimes listen to natural sound sources with your eyes closed? Do you really never experience a high degrees of "locatedness"? I do.
of course I do!

and the same "high degrees of "locatedness"" I experience when I listen to my CFS quasi-omni and to SLS (a la Stereolith)

so perhaps our "high degrees of "locatedness"" are not the same thing

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And please stop narrowing down audio reproduction to music recordings only.
I am not "narrowing down audio reproduction"

Rather I just don't care for "audio reproduction", because my hobby is high fidelity and high fidelity about music reproduction
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Old 23rd February 2010, 10:01 PM   #537
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Rather I just don't care for "audio reproduction", because my hobby is high fidelity and high fidelity about music reproduction
That's a very idiosyncratic definition of HiFi that probably not many people share.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 10:03 PM   #538
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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I mean the reason WHY we perceive phantom images is unknown to the science
yes indeed, and this is serious problem impeding any significant improvements of stereo because how can we improve something when we don't know how it works?
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Old 23rd February 2010, 10:07 PM   #539
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I mean the reason WHY we perceive phantom images is unknown to the science.
That is true and probably the main reason why this tedious discussion won't end any time soon...
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Old 23rd February 2010, 10:13 PM   #540
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
The degrees of image focus is highly variable in stereo recordings. No need for omni speakers to experience that. You probably want to describe something else but don't know how?
?
as for any descriptions on my part I simply describe what I can hear
and it is nothing uncomfortably "diffuse" nor "vague" at all,
not at all "un-pinpoint" in any negative sense
neither out of focus

in fact "images" are even more solid, almost "physical", I can move my head or even stand up and move and they stay where they "are", I experience this "reach-out-and-touch effect" - the name itself is an attempt at description of an "image of source" that seems to really occupy real 3D space

I don't experience such effects in standard stereo and in my opinion they add a lot to the realism of experience of listening to music at home
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