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Old 23rd February 2010, 05:21 PM   #511
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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graaf: in high fidelity something is better when it brings the music closer to You so that You can have an experience that is fuller aesthetically or just more fun

So if I think adding 20db at 100hz and using my "Jazz Room" reverb off my reciever is fuller or more fun, this is hi-fi?

I like the Picasso analogy and think its accurate. I like my Picassos wih more blue so I shine blue light on them (same as adding a lot of EQ to a recording). This is not accuracy, its personal taste. (and this is not the same as adding a little blue light to fix the white ballance of the light, or a little EQ to fix a deficient recording)
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Old 23rd February 2010, 05:23 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
good point Elias, thanks!
It's a very uninformed point. Take a look at studies done by Naqvi.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 05:35 PM   #513
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Do whatever you want. Take a pen and make your Picasso more "fun" but don't try to convince me that the painting will be more realistic afterwards.
Picasso had a very unusual (unrealistic) way of reducing three dimensions to two. Bring it back to three would make it more realistic.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 05:45 PM   #514
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Sure you can make it more realistic if the goal of each and every paintings has to be photorealism. What about the art? It gets destroyed in that process.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 06:08 PM   #515
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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My situation is the following: Once a year I go to the Days of Ancient Music in Regensburg, where I hear the ensembles in medieval rooms and churches, what I like. The managers of some labels however think it is better to produce the CDs like the ones with contemporary small ensembles (pop) and this is where other "artists" appear (mixing and mastering engineers). For me some "artists" too much, and if I can destroy their work with CFS I find that good, and if I can't do it in the desired way with Carlssons I find that bad.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 06:13 PM   #516
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One word: multichannel.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 06:28 PM   #517
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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I must confess I have absolutely no experience with it. I would like to hear a Decca Tree recording in 5.1
Have you heard one, and how does it compare to stereo?
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Old 23rd February 2010, 06:35 PM   #518
graaf is online now graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
So if I think adding 20db at 100hz and using my "Jazz Room" reverb off my reciever is fuller or more fun, this is hi-fi?
(...)
a little EQ to fix a deficient recording
no, it is not because hi-fi is about bringing the music
on the other hand "adding 20db at 100hz" is closer to making music rather than to bringing it

perhaps the word "fun" in my post appeared to be misleading, perhaps I was also overgeneralizing in a misleading way, I apologize

high fidelity was defined with reference to acoustic instruments and music events and as such as a "realistic high fidelity" - the title of Hartley's book (I posted picture of it's front cover)

therefore using "a little EQ to fix" (which is essentially the same thing as "adding 20db" ie. altering somehow subjectively deficient recording) is hi-fi absolutely if it makes the sound more realistic, closer tonally to the real thing in the ears of the listener of course, not more fun as such but more fun as more resembling the real thing

therefore in classic hi-fi gear like Quad or McIntosh we find tone controls
They knew that hi-fi was supposed to give satisfaction to a music lover (not to lover of boom boom bass massage ) with a satisfactory substitute of live music

this is the principal goal of hi-fi, it is not to pay hommage to "the art of the producer", it is to bring the music as realistically as possible in a small room - not to bring the sacred Picasso-like art of producer as accurately as possible - such an approach is taking means as ends
and an impossible thing to achieve for the time being (we have agreed, don't we?)
in case of recordings that we have there is no way out of the circle of confusion

therefore the same goes as to "Jazz room reverb" - if it is good reverb ie. one that makes the presentation more realistic not spoiling tonality nor adding any artificial quality to the sound at the same time then the answer is - yes this is hi-fi

honestly I think that it is unfair to suggest that using an omni is the same sort of thing as adding 20 dB @100Hz or using cheap reverb effect

we are not discussing sick abuses or abnormal deformations, are we?

giving the alternative answer would mean that we all (including Toole, Moulton, Linkwitz and so on) are just sick abusers of "art" and amateurs of deformations
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Last edited by graaf; 23rd February 2010 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 06:56 PM   #519
graaf is online now graaf  Poland
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my favourite quote regarding the question of "accuracy":

"Unbiased listeners have no difficulty recognizing accurate sound reproduction, even with hearing damage or with hearing aids."

apparently for some people - like Linkwitz -"accurate" means "accurately" mimicking the real thing ie. the real auditory experience, accesible as such, in it's basic elements and structures, even for a person "with hearing damage or with hearing aids"

go and tell Linkwitz that He does not care for "accuracy" and that His inaccurate designs are proof for that
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Old 23rd February 2010, 07:48 PM   #520
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It's a very uninformed point. Take a look at studies done by Naqvi.
Made an internet search on "Naqvi" and after filtering out search results about terrorists and suicide bombers I found this paper about "The Active Listening Room - A Novel Approach to Early Reflection Manipulation in Critical Listening Rooms"
http://www.sonicelement.co.uk/Resear...LR%20Paper.pdf

To me it just looks like a rude implementation of Ambiophonics. Home Page


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