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Old 17th February 2010, 04:53 PM   #431
keyser is offline keyser  Netherlands
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Okay, so the source-direction of a pure 300 hz tone should be audible. This is a much lower frequency than the approximately 1000 hz you usually mention. Do you believe a frequency in the whereabouts of 300 hz to be the lower frequency limit for hearing direction in the free-field and 1000 hz to be an approximate lower frequency limit for hearing source-direction in a small room?
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Old 17th February 2010, 05:07 PM   #432
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Heavens no! Where did you ever get the idea that I thought that? We do have decent directional sense at 300 Hz particularly with no reflections. In a small room the directionality will be compromised when reflections are present. But the key point here is that our sense of directionality at 300 Hz is not on par with what it is at 1 kHz and above. No one is arguing that there is some directionality at 300 Hz, only that it is so much stronger at 1 kHz and above that if there are signals above 1 kHz they will dominate the locational sense of the signal.
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Old 17th February 2010, 05:15 PM   #433
keyser is offline keyser  Netherlands
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Okay, then at least that is out of the way. I mistakingly thought you were of the opinion that directivity was not important below approx. 1 khz because there was no directionality below that frequency.

It is nevertheless interesting to think about why sine-waves up to a couple of hundred hertz have less directionality than Marcus' LR4 low-passed speech material. Would you give it a listen? I'd like to hear your view on it.
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Old 17th February 2010, 06:09 PM   #434
breez is offline breez  Finland
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Default Re: LF localization

Lateralization is possible for low frequencies, but is easily distracted by a broad band masker. It was also conjectured that room reverberation may cause such a distraction by phase fluctuations of the low frequency signal.

AES E-Library: Detection and Lateralization of Sinusoidal Signals in Presence of Dichotic Pink Noise

Significant results down to 25 Hz using 1/3 oct. band pink noise:

AES E-Library: Localization and Image Size Effects for Low Frequency Sound
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Old 17th February 2010, 06:13 PM   #435
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hello,

Since this thread is about a combined system with a loudspeaker and a room, one must not forget the speaker! And in particular the temporal effects of the combined system, and the most important reason for temporal fidelity - directivity. It's well known that a monopole gives a poor rendering of the low freq information inside a small room whereas the performance of a directional source is much more better.

Measured monopole and dipole room responses

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Old 17th February 2010, 06:33 PM   #436
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
(and common) to hook all your sources like cable/satellite/internet receiver, disc player, game console, etc. to an AVR and TV."
well, literally none of my audiophile and music lovers colleagues have it

but yes, I am aware that we are in minority from mass-market consumer point of view
as a matter of fact we are freaks, to watch movies we go to a cinema, we don't have iPods and don't use computers for audio purposes, we are even interested in music not only like some!

however I wasn't aware that for some users the diyaudio.com is a mass-market-consumer-crap-oriented forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
My experience is different. All omni directional concepts I have heard did create the very same aural space for each and every recording. Single sounds were always oversized and localization was ambiguous.
yes, Your experience is obviously different from mine, Moulton's, Hegeman's, Carlsson's, Salvatore's to name a few and of many, many (yes, many!) people who praise imaging and soundstaging of MBL 101 or Beolab 5 to name just two
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Old 17th February 2010, 06:44 PM   #437
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser View Post
Okay, then at least that is out of the way. I mistakingly thought you were of the opinion that directivity was not important below approx. 1 khz because there was no directionality below that frequency.

It is nevertheless interesting to think about why sine-waves up to a couple of hundred hertz have less directionality than Marcus' LR4 low-passed speech material. Would you give it a listen? I'd like to hear your view on it.
The point is that below about 500 Hz our hearing is loosing its directional resolution to the point where, in a small room, it is virtually gone at about 100 Hz. This certainly de-emphasizes the importance of directivity at these frequencies even if it does not make it altogether irrelavent. The critical thing is that above about 1 kHz we must have constant and controlled directivity and below 500 Hz it is of dubious value.
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Old 17th February 2010, 07:36 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
yes, Your experience is obviously different from mine, Moulton's, Hegeman's, Carlsson's, Salvatore's to name a few and of many, many (yes, many!) people who praise imaging and soundstaging of MBL 101 or Beolab 5 to name just two
My impression is that virtually no one in professional content creation uses these kind of speakers.

I once heard the Beolab 5 - honestly, that was one of the worst loudspeakers I've ever listened to.

Last edited by Pano; 17th February 2010 at 07:58 PM. Reason: personal stuff removed
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Old 17th February 2010, 07:55 PM   #439
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Like Keyser I have a had time localizing sine waves. For me, at most any frequency.

So I thought I'd try this test.
  1. The filtered Voice. No problem telling where it came from. In fact I had to turn off the right channel to even hear the left.
  2. White noise low passed at 300Hz. Also very easy. No mistake.
  3. 300Hz sine wave. It came out of the wrong channel! Until I realized that it was actually coming from where I put it. But because I happened to be looking at the silent speaker, it "stuck" there. Had to move around some to unstick it. But, sitting between the speakers it seemed to come mostly from the center.

All the tests were done with only the woofers on, no mid or tweeter. Woofer low passed at 450Hz, 3rd order.

The voice file does contain info above 300Hz, see my FFT graphs below. However the 300Hz white noise does not contain much, I used a steep filter.

For me, the trouble comes with pure sine waves. I'll try to test where white noise has to be low passed for me not to be able to locate it on my system.

Interesting stuff!
Attached Images
File Type: png voice-lp.png (5.6 KB, 127 views)
File Type: png white-300hz-fft.png (4.8 KB, 127 views)
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Old 17th February 2010, 08:15 PM   #440
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
The voice file does contain info above 300Hz, see my FFT graphs below. However the 300Hz white noise does not contain much, I used a steep filter.

Interesting stuff!
Markus

If thats the stuff that you are putting out as "LP filtered above 300 Hz", thats pretty shabby.
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