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Old 17th February 2010, 10:51 AM   #411
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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on "detrimental" early reflections, Moulton and Toole

from Toole "Sound Reproduction"on page 417:
"In control room, attenuation of early eflections, particularly those from the side walls, is usually a requirement. The need for this has been discussed earlier, and it is an option, not a requirement. All to commonly, (...) all that is accomplished is an attenuation of first reflections from tweeters. (...) The spectral balance of the sound has been altered, and possibly a good speaker has been made to sound less good."

this is pure Moultonís argumentation

so, does Toole really view early reflections as detrimental to the sound quality?
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:22 PM   #412
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o yeah! first ...
Don't know why I need to repeat myself constantly: strong lateral reflections is a spatial effect. It's similar to the perception one has in certain concert halls.

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are You into home cinema? I am not, and it is not hi-fi, hi-fi is about the music, home cinema is different kind of home entertainment
I'm into audio reproduction. A system that is capable of reproducing only one special kind of aural space is useless to me.

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good questions! In fact the same I keep asking and asking
Only I was thinking that You rather know the answers since You have read all the books, newest Toole etc...

well, so, who can answer?
Nobody can. I'm here to learn something new but all I found is people fighting for their subjective personal truths.
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:28 PM   #413
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so, does Toole really view early reflections as detrimental to the sound quality?
Toole argues that lateral reflections are preferable. But there's more to the story. The book has 500+ pages. Did you read the whole book or are you just pulling quotes that suit your needs?
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:55 PM   #414
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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I'm into audio reproduction. A system that is capable of reproducing only one special kind of aural space is useless to me.
that's ok!
however it is not useless for many music lovers who even don't have any TVs or projectors at home.

and I'm not sure what You mean saying "one special kind of aural space"

Designs and setups I'm speaking of in this thread certainly don't reproduce only "one special kind of aural space". They reproduce what is in the recording. Perhaps some listeners would maintain that there is some superimposed common "space signature", that everything spatial is somewhat magnified, but still it is something very different from "one kind of aural space"


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I'm here to learn something new but all I found is people fighting for their subjective personal truths.
well, it's an unfair overgeneralization IMO

and actually "fighting for personal truths" is not the worst case
the worst is advertising camouflaged with expertising
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Old 17th February 2010, 01:02 PM   #415
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Toole argues that lateral reflections are preferable. But there's more to the story. The book has 500+ pages. Did you read the whole book or are you just pulling quotes that suit your needs?
well,
we are discussing and so I expect that You will pull quotes to the contrary
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Old 17th February 2010, 01:04 PM   #416
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I am keeping most of what I do to myself and sort of dancing around my best ideas.
Then you shouldn't come here and discuss it unless you are willing to give the details. People will stop responding to you completely if you do that.
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Old 17th February 2010, 01:17 PM   #417
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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... below approximately 600 hz, as with sine-waves I can not hear at which speaker it is generated, in a listening room that is. I've also done some experiments outside - in the free field I can tell from which direction the sound comes to very low frequency ....
I"m with you there. Outside it's easy. I remember being able to point to where an earthquake came from. That's a really low sound. And in a big enclosed space like hotel ballroom or concert hall, bass localization is not too hard.

So I assume it's the reflections and room modes that mess it up in most normal size listening rooms. Midrange sounds still seem a lot easier, no matter what.
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Old 17th February 2010, 01:26 PM   #418
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I"m with you there. Outside it's easy. I remember being able to point to where an earthquake came from. That's a really low sound. And in a big enclosed space like hotel ballroom or concert hall, bass localization is not too hard.

So I assume it's the reflections and room modes that mess it up in most normal size listening rooms. Midrange sounds still seem a lot easier, no matter what.
There is also a time factor involved. The longer the signal is on the better you can resolve its location. A short LF wavelet would not be localizable in any environment.
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Old 17th February 2010, 01:28 PM   #419
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that's ok!
however it is not useless for many music lovers who even don't have any TVs or projectors at home.
Many? I'm talking about the majority, you're probably talking about yourself.
You don't need a projector to watch a Blu-ray disc. It's pretty easy (and common) to hook all your sources like cable/satellite/internet receiver, disc player, game console, etc. to an AVR and TV.

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and I'm not sure what You mean saying "one special kind of aural space"

Designs and setups I'm speaking of in this thread certainly don't reproduce only "one special kind of aural space". They reproduce what is in the recording.
My experience is different. All omni directional concepts I have heard did create the very same aural space for each and every recording. Single sounds were always oversized and localization was ambiguous. That's exactly the same perception I have in classic concert halls. The difference is that classic music is made for these kind of spaces but virtually all other recordings are not.

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Old 17th February 2010, 01:33 PM   #420
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The longer the signal is on the better you can resolve its location.
That was the trouble wit the earthquake. =(

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A short LF wavelet would not be localizable in any environment.
What would constitute a "wavelet"? Less than a full cycle at that frequency?
Would that difficulty also apply to wavelets of a higher frequency?
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