The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers - Page 41 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th February 2010, 03:51 PM   #401
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Switzerland
Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
such is also my experience

the subject is VERY controversial and our adversaries would keep persuading us to death that we have impaired sense of hearing and/or have no grip of what hi-fi is all about

fortunately for us (or perhaps rather unfortunately?) there are some informed people (of course wheter they are truly informed and/or morally integral is subject to an ongoing controversy) who are not only sharing our experience but who are also trying to give explanations:

see:
Moulton's Takes

see:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/SLCBI.htm

see:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Acoustics...ll%20Rooms.doc
Sounds like you're on some kind of crusade. I try to stay open minded. Let's put things into perspective:

Creating room reflections will increase spaciousness. There's no doubt about it. The question is: is that kind of spaciousness desireable for each and every recording, e.g. movies? Why do certain reflections increase speech intelligibility? Why are the same reflections detrimental in other cases? What are the implications of our ability to adapt to different acoustics? Is there a point in time a recording would take over, i.e. make us aurally forget the acoustics of the room we are in?
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 05:53 PM   #402
Key is offline Key  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
You still did not read Toole's book?!
Eh I am broke so I have been skimming through the googlebooks abridged version along with some other books like Bob Katz's. I just have been busy with my own kooky ideas and testing them with my system. I also have to use my money on those ideas if I am ever going to get them out of my listening room.

It's just I am really skeptical of laboratory testing and then just taking those results and running with them. Especially when I see on the chart they are in an anechoic chamber I become very skeptical that those results translate in any real way to an average room.

The same way a scientist will look at the conclusions I come to from mixing and controlling reflections through psychoacoustics and phantom imagery and say the results are tainted I think the scientist isn't "real world" enough with a lot of his methodologies. To put it simply an anechoic chamber is a great place to test speakers and microphones but not exactly ideal to test the threshold of what a listener will hear in a real room. It's known that you are more sensitive to things like phase response in a chamber where in a real room you can't hear a difference between phase linear and drastically phase distorted material. So under the same conditions if you were to test the threshold for detecting phase distortions by placing people in a chamber your results would be very wrong if you are actually trying to find out how these things will effect people in a real room.


Moulton seems on point for some of his conclusions. But the more I think about a threshold for reflections the more holes in that theory I see. I mean it is just common knowledge that the more you move freestanding speakers out in the room the more accurate they get. But it seems clear that I can break that rule to an extent and still have accurate reproduction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 07:07 PM   #403
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Switzerland
Key, no offense intended but you have some basic misconceptions. Reading the relevant literature would only help you save a lot of time (and money). In the last 80 years of stereo a lot of very bright people tried exactly what you are trying to do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 07:32 PM   #404
diyAudio Member
 
dantheman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mountain View, CA
Toole's book is now $40 USD on amazon. I just got it a couple weeks(approx 1 month) ago for 20 something. It's extremely useful and well written. The best 20 something USD I've ever spent on audio. It's worth $40 for anyone who posts on this site.

Dan
__________________
My Blog
My Music Recordings
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 09:22 PM   #405
Key is offline Key  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
And what exactly am I trying to do markus? And what are those misconceptions? You seem a little too certain for me to take you intellectually serious. The thing is none of literature is really covering what I am experimenting with. And the literature that does has problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2010, 09:41 PM   #406
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Switzerland
Just tried to be helpful. Good luck on your journey.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2010, 01:59 AM   #407
Key is offline Key  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
I wasn't mad I was just asking you exactly what you think I have wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have added the part about certainty but it does seem like you tend to lecture to me from this pedestal and generally every time you direct something my way you are telling me what I should be doing with absolutely no idea of what I am actually doing. I am keeping most of what I do to myself and sort of dancing around my best ideas.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2010, 05:56 AM   #408
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
Key,

if you rather are an experimentalist and willing to spend a bit more than 20 bucks:
Get a pair of Visaton B200 and put them in folded TLs with the driver on top, in the height of your ears, facing the ceiling. Will probably produce some "shout" in this configuration, but if you like the imaging you can coat the diapragms to lift the breakup-frequency a bit. Will also be very useful for removing dust. This configuration doesn't have this wow-effect like the Carlssons when fed with true stereo recordings, but is much more universal and will add some "acousticness" to synth reverb recordings.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2010, 09:00 AM   #409
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
diyAudio Member
 
graaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Sounds like you're on some kind of crusade. I try to stay open minded.
o yeah! first success in my "crusade of open-mindedness"

but seriously - what crusade?
I am only saying something like "look people I have founded something and to my ears it' s kind of interesting, so how about trying it yourself?"

hearing is believing

but I am also asking questions (and for this scandalous impudence please excuse me! )

I am asking because I am interested in optimization of the results of my experiments, of all those unusual designs and setups
and some theoretical understanding of what is going on is a prerequisite of serious optimization, isnt't it?

unfortunately what I get from here residing experts as answers to those questions are only suggestions like "You don't understand, You just HAVE to be wrong - period"
"You just have to have hallucinations and/or impaired sense of hearing and/or have no grip of what hi-fi is all about - period", "go read newest Toole - period" etc.

exact wording of those answers is more polite of course but the meaning is such

and I don't know what to think about it

Floyd Toole doesn't cover in His book things like discussed here or in the "stereolith" thread.

On the other hand Toole knows works of people like Moulton (whom He quotes 6 times in His book although without disccusion AFAIK) and many highly respected engineers in the history of this business were developing similar ideas of wide dispersion and diffuse sound, not just Amar Bose but Paul Voigt, Gilbert Briggs, Victor Brociner, Stewart Hegeman, Stig Carlsson etc. etc.

Am I to understand that they didn't know what hi-fi is all about?

on the other hand I know opinions of many people who praise the "spatial recreation" abilities of such unorthodox designs and setups, that is of Stereolith and "Stereolith like setup" and of various omnidirectional designs

among them people like eg. Arthur Salvatore, certainly not an "audio-heretic" but rather mainstream hi-end audio dealer for years with immense experience and personal loudspeaker sound preference towards things like big Coincidents or Wilsons:
REFERENCE COMPONENTS-SPEAKERS

nevertheless He honestly admits that it is rather classic Hegeman omnidirectional design (Morrison Audio) that:

Quote:
has the finest overall imaging I’ve ever heard. The soundstage is both huge and focused, with the speakers totally disappearing.
simple omni better in that regard than sophisticated mainstream behemoths?

or perhaps Salvathore is just one more guy with impaired hearing or ignorant of what is good in this hobby? or perhaps Don Morrison is His boyfriend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Let's put things into perspective:
The question is: is that kind of spaciousness desireable for each and every recording, e.g. movies?
are You into home cinema? I am not, and it is not hi-fi, hi-fi is about the music, home cinema is different kind of home entertainment

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
"Why do certain reflections increase speech intelligibility? Why are the same reflections detrimental in other cases? What are the implications of our ability to adapt to different acoustics? Is there a point in time a recording would take over, i.e. make us aurally forget the acoustics of the room we are in?
good questions! In fact the same I keep asking and asking
Only I was thinking that You rather know the answers since You have read all the books, newest Toole etc...

well, so, who can answer?
__________________
"high phooey and hystereo" - Yascha Heifetz

Last edited by graaf; 17th February 2010 at 09:04 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2010, 09:43 AM   #410
keyser is offline keyser  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
keyser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I totally I agree with Earl but nonetheless there is useful spatial information in signals lower 500 Hz. Find out for yourself with the following two examples of a low-pass filtered male voice:

Low-Pass (24 db) at 150 Hz (AAC, 2 MB)

Low-Pass (24 db) at 300 Hz (AAC, 2 MB)

It also becomes pretty obvious how important higher frequencies are to understand one word at all

Best, Markus
I always was with Earl Geddes on localization below approximately 600 hz, as with sine-waves I can not hear at which speaker it is generated, in a listening room that is. I've also done some experiments outside - in the free field I can tell from which direction the sound comes to very low frequency sine-waves. I don't remember the exact frequency, but 100 hz was still pretty easy.

Your samples are very enlightening. For both samples localization is easy in-room! Apparently sine-waves differ too much from normal program material making them invalid for this kind of testing.
__________________
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" - Friedrich Nietzsche
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using a diffuser cone for up-firing speakers tspringer99 Multi-Way 19 23rd July 2014 02:04 AM
Floor Standing Speakers. gurpreetsingh Full Range 11 12th June 2012 06:42 AM
side/ rear firing speakers Good/Bad? mcmahon48 Multi-Way 1 6th February 2009 12:28 PM
How far can the driver of a down-firing sub be from the floor? The Paulinator Subwoofers 11 16th May 2007 08:10 PM
Woofer: side firing pair vs front firing? tcpip Multi-Way 13 9th September 2005 02:13 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:41 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2