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Old 13th July 2013, 10:38 PM   #3051
Rudolf is online now Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
The CiXXXQ series seems to be too new to produce any published radiation patterns. Do you have any information about polars for the Ci200Q? Would you expect the radiation pattern to be more omni or less omni than that of the predecessor Ci200 3Q?

Thanks for supporting us in this matter.
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Old 13th July 2013, 10:53 PM   #3052
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Well, there's your problem right there, it says in ceiling, not in floor!

Haha.

I'm just playing.
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Old 14th July 2013, 01:45 PM   #3053
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
IMO you are better off, making a speaker in such a way that it does not confuse lateralization
cues detected on a recording by the listener relying mostly on low to mid freqauencies < 2Khz.
This was also my leading thought at the time I was actively using my dipole line arrays. High directivity at low and midrange freqs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
There is no evidence to me, that a uniform directivity pattern is necessary over the entire audible bandwith.
I think so too.
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Old 14th July 2013, 01:51 PM   #3054
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Since fullrange coherent loudspeakers (especially conventional CD concepts like
e.g. proposed by SL above) tend to cause reflections strongly correlated to the
direct sound in usual (non extensively treated) listening rooms, those
"reproduction induced ITDG cues" are so very detrimental to imageing, because
they strongly c o m p e t e with ITDG cues on the recording.

Instruments and voices in a real musical venue never compete this way: They keep
separable by producing individual sets of ITDG cues and also patterns of later
reflections separable in arrival time and direction.

The conventional loudspeaker (fullrange coherent and also optionally CD) is a
bad musical instrument in that respect: It competes with all the instruments and
voices to be reproduced by causing strong and uniform ITDG cues combined even with
uniform later reflections strongly correlated with the direct sound over the whole
audible bandwidth.

Such loudspeakers force the user more than it is desirable to build a reflection
free zone around the speakers in order to have long ITDG in the listening room.

What is left from strong reflections arriving at the listener has to be treated
with diffusers and absorbers, which is not a practical way to go consequently
for most listeners.

So you are suggesting a method to make reflections non correlated from the direct sound, am I wrong ?

You got bending waves, do you still use them ?

Have you got any data to show the correlation between the on and off axis signals ? This is what we would need to see if it is practical.
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Old 14th July 2013, 02:04 PM   #3055
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Stereo speakers with very high directivity (high direct/reverberant ratio) will place the window directly at our head. The listening room influence is highly subdued and we may have the front soloist playing/singing at nose distance.
In my experience I have found this to be true especially at high freqs above 1kHz (about).

It means high directivity speakers at high freqs, including horns or 'waveguides', cannot be used if any realistic sound reproduction is desired. Where in reality the sound event occurs at your nose?

What we need at high freqs is low D / R ratio. It enables sounds to be reproduced in a small room in a realistic manner.
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Old 14th July 2013, 02:10 PM   #3056
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
I'm utterly surprised that after 3000+ posts , the excellent Karlson speaker with coaxial developed in 1951 has not been mentioned
I'm allways open for 'new' ideas But come on, no one has ever posted a polar diagram of a Karlson speaker ?? Why is that ?

I want to see what the diffraction from the slot does to the directivity.
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Old 14th July 2013, 02:19 PM   #3057
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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I think the performance of the system is inversely proportional to the length of the girl's dress


Anyway, I'm too fascinated by these vintage methods that pop up long since they have been forgotten earlier. It's like reinventing the wheel which is my motto


Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
1955 look at the middle picture of the Karlson 12 - this was Karlson's "Aural Optics"
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 14th July 2013, 02:40 PM   #3058
Rudolf is online now Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
IMO you are better off, making a speaker in such a way that it does not confuse lateralization cues detected on a recording by the listener relying mostly on low to mid freqauencies < 2Khz.
This was also my leading thought at the time I was actively using my dipole line arrays. High directivity at low and midrange freqs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
There is no evidence to me, that a uniform directivity pattern is necessary over the entire audible bandwith.
I think so too.
A strictly uniform directivity pattern over the entire audible bandwith is technically impossible - even with dipoles . But don't we want to keep the high frequency portion of the reflections as high/constant as possible?
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Old 14th July 2013, 03:05 PM   #3059
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
But don't we want to keep the high frequency portion of the reflections as high/constant as possible?
Some do and some don't. But even those who do, they tend to 'forget' that most typical rooms do not support constant reflective energy at high freqs.

If true constant energy reflection is a goal, then speaker off axis energy must increase with frequency and not be constant as is claimed.
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Old 14th July 2013, 03:06 PM   #3060
Rudolf is online now Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
It means high directivity speakers at high freqs, including horns or 'waveguides', cannot be used if any realistic sound reproduction is desired. Where in reality the sound event occurs at your nose?
There is no realistic sound reproduction in stereo, because stereo in itself is highly artificial. You can only argue about the fidelity to the sound heard at the engineering/mixing/production facility.
The waveguides I know of don't have a directivity index which is much different from dipoles. The main difference is in the angular increase of directivity - progressive in dipoles, more linear in waveguides. So you are saying that dipoles are no good for sound reproduction too .
Quote:
What we need at high freqs is low D / R ratio. It enables sounds to be reproduced in a small room in a realistic manner.
How do you do that? Adding supertweeters directed to the back of the room?

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