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Old 9th July 2013, 10:05 AM   #2981
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
How does our brain process 2-speaker stereo? Is it aware of the two separate sound sources (speakers) or does stereo hide the existance of multiple sources just good enough for a single auditory event to emerge?
Before the stereo age there have been no multiple and physically separated primary sound sources, which were correlated nevertheless. It has always been one primary source and any number of correlated reflections.
Evolution has even enabled us to locate a sound source from its reflections only, if the primary signal is subdued in any way. Only if our brain can't associate a stereo mix with an evolutionary learned source-reflection relationship, it will locate a sound directly at a loudspeaker.

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Old 9th July 2013, 10:12 AM   #2982
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That's a hypothesis, not exactly what I was asking for
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Old 9th July 2013, 11:09 AM   #2983
UnixMan is offline UnixMan  Europe
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
That's not exactly the type of speaker discussed in this thread
indeed. I introduced them here before the topic subject change... back then they seemed pretty well on-topic.

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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Anyway, I see a lot of potential problems with the implementation, some of which can be solved by mounting drivers like Linkwitz did in the Pluto.
Your measurements showing 0-90 seem to be wrong. Only 5dB difference between 0 and 90 at 10kHz??
idea, design and measurements are not mine: you'd better post your interesting comments and questions where they would be more on-topic and the author will read them. Actually, I'd love to see that. It's always a good thing when very competent people meet and discuss, and new ideas may emerge...

About the response, I don't know exactly how the measurements have been done, etc. You should really ask the author about that. I can only tell you that the author briefly explained that he have put a lot of care in the choice of the components (speakers) as well as cross-over point and design used for this project exactly to achieve this kind of goal. In particular the small and "almost naked" tweeter have been chosen because of its very wide and uniform dispersion.
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Last edited by UnixMan; 9th July 2013 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 9th July 2013, 11:26 AM   #2984
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Before the stereo age there have been no multiple and physically separated primary sound sources, which were correlated nevertheless. It has always been one primary source and any number of correlated reflections.
Evolution has even enabled us to locate a sound source from its reflections only, if the primary signal is subdued in any way. Only if our brain can't associate a stereo mix with an evolutionary learned source-reflection relationship, it will locate a sound directly at a loudspeaker.

Rudolf
C'mon Rudolf - just try a transaural setup and then You will know
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Old 9th July 2013, 11:36 AM   #2985
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In particular the small and "almost naked" tweeter have been chosen because of its very wide and uniform dispersion.
Dome tweeters and wide dispersion? This one's more than 10dB down at 10kHz:
Demokrit-T

Lead by Linkwitz, the new mantra seems to be "on-axis and off-axis frequency responses need to be identical" and yet the associated speakers don't have these properties.
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Old 9th July 2013, 12:20 PM   #2986
UnixMan is offline UnixMan  Europe
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Try laying your periakusmas on their side on the floor, I would be surprised if you did not find the main sound sources to now appear to be located in a position roughly equivalent to the periakusma's tweeters.
well, that can not be done... laid on a side they will no longer work as intended (no more omnidirectional emission, no more "flooding", "wrong" frequency response, etc). Perhaps, a more reasonable experiment could be done with a conventional (e.g. a small bookshelf) speaker laid on its back...

Anyway, I've got your point. Having no direct experience I can't tell whether you're right or not.

Though I suspect that dispersion and freq. response of the used speakers (as well as their position in the room) may make a lot of difference.

For instance, the old, first version of the periakusma (see here) were smaller and shorter than the current one (and also had a less well-balanced freq. response). With them, we found out that their performance was better if we listened being seated on the floor, thus with ears at a level closer to that of the speakers. But! the problem was not (it have never been) about "wrong" imaging or speakers becoming localizable. Even when standing up near one of them! There was only a problem of frequency response (too much highs when the speakers were "too low" WRT the listener ears).

As said, the most peculiar characteristic of these speakers is that there is no small "sweet spot" where you need to be to enjoy a correct presentation: you can move freely and even "walk around" the room while listening... (hence their name).

If properly placed in the room, the image always remains the same (well, perhaps about the same... I didn't measure it with a meter! ), in the same position, with same apparent width and height. Even if standing near one of the speakers, thus with direct sound coming "from the floor" on your side.

Given that experience, I don't see it impossible for something like what Graaf propose to behave similarly.
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Old 9th July 2013, 01:29 PM   #2987
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Dome tweeters and wide dispersion? This one's more than 10dB down at 10kHz:
Demokrit-T
The Dayton ND20 is significantly better in this regard :
DaytonND20 tiny_vert_1.gif
Measured without additional baffle to speak of.
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Old 9th July 2013, 01:59 PM   #2988
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I don't see a significant difference? In the end "on-axis and off-axis frequency responses need to be identical" is probably an unnecessary exaggeration which should really read "on-axis frequency response and frequency response of significant early reflections need to be identical".
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Last edited by markus76; 9th July 2013 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 10th July 2013, 01:27 AM   #2989
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I don't see a significant difference? In the end "on-axis and off-axis frequency responses need to be identical" is probably an unnecessary exaggeration which should really read "on-axis frequency response and frequency response of significant early reflections need to be identical".
No, I'd side with Sigfried on this one. The critical part of getting this right is all in the balance between direct and reflecting. The speaker I mocked up was in a sense an SL Pluto. To get this right both must balance. 6.5" Peerless SDS-160F25PR01-08 excels at this when crossed LR2 @2200. Cone distortion from this driver is quite low, but it's an old school motor with all the odd order harmonics that come with them. Nice smooth non fatiging midrange. BTW I do use a miniDSP for this, but even a passive wouldn't be difficult to do the same on this driver.

I'll add that diffraction play a big role in getting the best out of this too

Last edited by Greebster; 10th July 2013 at 01:56 AM. Reason: additional info
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Old 10th July 2013, 01:59 AM   #2990
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Scratch direct / reflecting. Ment to say on and off axis response
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