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Old 22nd May 2013, 03:28 PM   #2521
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Markus, on-wall would be really great. I have no idea why there were and still are only a few on-wall systems.

graaf, the more channels you add the more realistic the listening experience gets, as long as the recording is well made. Movies are more on these effects, creating a "wow". It is well known by professionals that multichannel recordings can be superior. SACD and DVD-A were the first really seriously marketed products with multichannel support. They are dead by now.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 05:41 PM   #2522
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then question is whether a multichannel setup really has any advantages over 2 channel as far as realism of sound reproduction is concerned

or perhaps it is all just about some impressive effects?

just to quote Peter Walker's of QUAD opinion on multichannel:

Man are Walkers comments dated.

the opinion referred to the multichannel of the 70s ie. quadrophony, of course, but it's a general statement and I think that it holds true with regard to any rear channels
First Graaf, we don't use special effects in multi channel music, it just the music and ambiance of the hall as captured by the microphones. What the heck would we do with "special effects" in music? YOU may not desire the rear channels, and that is okay. But two channel is a step backwards from achieving any level of "reality". And all of the band aids applied to stereo(Flooders, Bose direct/reflecting, AR magic speaker,OB's) are all attempts to squeeze more out of stereo than there really is. Two channels is two channels, and room reflections(as helpful as they are) does not equal more channels, more information, or more realism.

As far as Walkers comments, if you have to reach all the way back to the 70's to make a point, your point has no legs. You are just throwing stuff against the wall as seeing what does not make it to the floor. His statement is nearly 40 years old, quad didn't have a center channel, nor are mixes done today anything like the quad mixes of the 70's. Quad emphasized movement and gimmick, today's surround is about accurate capture to enhance the "you are there" experience of listening. It is about immersion, not gimmicks.

I would strongly suggest you have A LOT more exposure to multichannel music before you make these kinds comments. With all due respect, anyone that has would think your comments are "out there". I think anyone that has had profound exposure to both stereo and multichannel sure wouldn't the comment that the rear channels aren't necessary, or does multichannel add any more realism than stereo. Only a person with little or no exposure to multichannel music would ask this.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 05:45 PM   #2523
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Markus, on-wall would be really great. I have no idea why there were and still are only a few on-wall systems.

graaf, the more channels you add the more realistic the listening experience gets, as long as the recording is well made. Movies are more on these effects, creating a "wow". It is well known by professionals that multichannel recordings can be superior. SACD and DVD-A were the first really seriously marketed products with multichannel support. They are dead by now.
SACD is not quite dead yet they are still releasing content on the format. DVD-A is dead, it is not supported by anyone. Bluray disc has stepped in its place, and I have about 450 concert and video concert titles in my collection, and there are more being released weekly.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 09:38 PM   #2524
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SACD is dead in Europe, maybe it is different in other parts of the world. Blu-ray might start a new Renaissance, but I don't believe it: there's still the problem that people don't want 5 big speakers in their room.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 11:23 PM   #2525
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SACD is dead in Europe, maybe it is different in other parts of the world. Blu-ray might start a new Renaissance, but I don't believe it: there's still the problem that people don't want 5 big speakers in their room.
Who says you need five big speakers? My 7.1 music system uses seven mini monitors and two subwoofers. Bass management allows for the use of smaller speakers along with a sub(s). On my receiver bass management can be done digitally or in the analog domain. While the analog bass management only allows a single crossover point(80hz), that crossover point works well with a wide variety of speakers. Aside from that, there is not a lot of bass in the surround channels, so full or extended range speakers are not necessary for those channels - there really is no benefit for the added cost of full rangers in the surround channels.

Here in the states we still get a fair amount of weekly releases, mostly classical.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 06:20 AM   #2526
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graaf, the more channels you add the more realistic the listening experience gets, as long as the recording is well made. Movies are more on these effects, creating a "wow". It is well known by professionals that multichannel recordings can be superior. SACD and DVD-A were the first really seriously marketed products with multichannel support. They are dead by now.
bolds mine
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Old 23rd May 2013, 06:28 AM   #2527
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First Graaf, we don't use special effects in multi channel music, it just the music and ambiance of the hall as captured by the microphones.

...I think anyone that has had profound exposure to both stereo and multichannel sure wouldn't the comment that the rear channels aren't necessary, or does multichannel add any more realism than stereo. Only a person with little or no exposure to multichannel music would ask this.
ok, I see, thank You for the reply, I can understand that multichannel has advantages in conveying a sense of envelopment, LEV, ambient ie. spaciousness of the soundstage.

But can you tell me whether available multichannel formats allow for perception of apparent source width (ASW) ie. the spaciousness of a sound source?
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Old 23rd May 2013, 07:17 PM   #2528
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Who says you need five big speakers?
Of course you don't need five big floorstands, each equipped with 2x 8" woofers. Using small monitors which can deliver reasonable output down to 80 Hz, together with one or more subwoofers, will be sufficient.

But let me show you the reality in Germany: Movie 3005 - Movie Series - CANTON German loudspeaker tradition (en)

A few years ago I sold dozens of these small sets from various manufacturers each year. I can remember only one time when I sold a set of Kef Q1 (and the matching center, can't remember its name). And I convinced a friend of mine to buy a set of Kef Cresta. That's all. The customers simply don't want five "big" speakers in their room. Of course they're more expensive, too, but I don't think that this is the main reason. It's the size, and often you can't attach them to the wall without banging your head everytime you walk by.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 08:35 PM   #2529
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ok, I see, thank You for the reply, I can understand that multichannel has advantages in conveying a sense of envelopment, LEV, ambient ie. spaciousness of the soundstage.

But can you tell me whether available multichannel formats allow for perception of apparent source width (ASW) ie. the spaciousness of a sound source?
I would say yes, because there are more speakers with more information coming to the ears from various directions - much like(but not precisely) the live event itself.

In saying this, I would challenge you to listen to a well calibrated well set up multichannel system for yourself. At that point you can decide whether the rear channels add anything to the experience, or whether it is better than stereo.

I can talk all day about being a Doctor, but it is not quite the same experience as actually being one.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 08:43 PM   #2530
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Of course you don't need five big floorstands, each equipped with 2x 8" woofers. Using small monitors which can deliver reasonable output down to 80 Hz, together with one or more subwoofers, will be sufficient.
Exactly!

Quote:
But let me show you the reality in Germany: Movie 3005 - Movie Series - CANTON German loudspeaker tradition (en)
I cannot believe that is all the options available to German consumers.

Quote:
A few years ago I sold dozens of these small sets from various manufacturers each year. I can remember only one time when I sold a set of Kef Q1 (and the matching center, can't remember its name). And I convinced a friend of mine to buy a set of Kef Cresta. That's all. The customers simply don't want five "big" speakers in their room.
You keep mentioning BIG speakers, and that is not necessary for multichannel music. You don't need BIG speakers to playback multichannel sound. Bass management give you more options than that.

Quote:
Of course they're more expensive, too, but I don't think that this is the main reason. It's the size, and often you can't attach them to the wall without banging your head everytime you walk by.
So there are no other options in Germany except speakers that bang your head every time you walk by? I thought Germany was more technologically sophisticated than that.
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