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Old 13th May 2013, 05:02 PM   #2481
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Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
Because reflections are surpressed, what is perceived is only the initial sound source, whether it be from omni or controlled directivity loudspeakers.
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If I'm trying to prove/disprove anything it's Linkwitz's observation/conjecture that our perceptual mechanism accounts for specular reflections in manner allowing concentration on direct sound, including virtual sources generated by multiple highly correlated real sources.
So the only requirement for optimal sound reproduction is high similarity of direct sound and reflections, so our brain can filter them out, i.e. listening to fully constant directivity speakers in bathroom-like rooms with tiles all around has to be considered as optimal? Something's certainly wrong with that notion
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Old 13th May 2013, 06:49 PM   #2482
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Markus,

Glad to have aroused your curiosity. How can I tell? You are complaining, jiving, and being evasive.

I've heard boom boxes played in large communal shower when in prep-school. The sound was very wet.
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Old 13th May 2013, 07:22 PM   #2483
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So the only requirement for optimal sound reproduction is high similarity of direct sound and reflections, so our brain can filter them out, i.e. listening to fully constant directivity speakers in bathroom-like rooms with tiles all around has to be considered as optimal? Something's certainly wrong with that notion
Who said optimal? I mentioned I can hear a lot of room. But the stereo imaging is superb, and that is what we were discussing. And yes, sound quality in real rooms benefits from speakers that do not have sharp transitions between the listening window and the sound produced further off axis.
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Old 13th May 2013, 07:29 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Markus,

Glad to have aroused your curiosity. How can I tell? You are complaining, jiving, and being evasive.
Not in the slightest. Care to elaborate?

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I've heard boom boxes played in large communal shower when in prep-school. The sound was very wet.
And also very good?
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Old 13th May 2013, 07:34 PM   #2485
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Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
Who said optimal? I mentioned I can hear a lot of room.
Is this good or bad?

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But the stereo imaging is superb, and that is what we were discussing.
"We"? Not what I was discussing.

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And yes, sound quality in real rooms benefits from speakers that do not have sharp transitions between the listening window and the sound produced further off axis.
Never suggested anything different, did I?
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Old 14th May 2013, 01:51 AM   #2486
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
When the listening room provides artificially added reflections, the presentation can become more "you're there". It's like the front wall of the listening room has been removed and opens into the auditory space of the recording.
Real envelopment (LEV) requires additional speakers at the back. The effect is profound and nobody that has heard it would ever argue about the superiority of multichannel over stereo. Obviously a lot of people here haven't heard good multichannel setups/recordings.
I am afraid you are right about multichannel. The problem is many think it takes a bundle of cash to put a multichannel system together, and nothing can be further from the truth. A modest system does a very good job of translating what is on the disc or drive to your ears if properly set up.

My experience with stereo(even with reflections added) never gave me the "you are there" effect. The best systems were great at bringing the performer in the room, but not transporting me to the concert hall, arena, or performance hall. You really need the recorded ambiance coming from the sides and rear to transport yourself to the recording location. Room reflections are just not strong enough to the sides of the head (90 degrees) to really give that live sense of spaciousness IMO. It does sound more spaciousness than if there were no reflections, but not enough to convince my brain it is real ambiance in the recording. Reflections within the room will always have this "sameness" in that no matter what recording is playing, the reflective pattern will always be the same.
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Old 14th May 2013, 02:20 AM   #2487
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
I've placed the speaker pair in a number of locations in my living room. Imaging detail and stability is fantastic.

Even when placed directly in front of brick wall. Of course EQ changes, but this doesn't impact imaging and spaciousness. The walls presence is completely imperceptible. From as far back as I can get to just short of placing head in between the speakers the image remains stable. Approaching the speakers is very much like approaching a live stage.
Very interesting experiment, in some ways mimicing the MBL watermelons.

Your description of the subjective effect is right on the money, this is on the path to completely invisible speakers ...
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Old 14th May 2013, 10:31 AM   #2488
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This makes sense, but it does not account for the fact that the flooder's were all much too diffusive at 10ft away than my Dunlavy's at the same distance. So even with that symmetry, the sound was not ideal IMO.
question is if in fact there was this required symmetry, the listening distance is just a part of the equation


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This is another definitive statement that cannot be quantified in real life. It all depends on the arrangement of the furniture. In this case, neither has a real advantage over the other, it is at the listeners discretion. The end user can create horizontal symmetry just as easy as he can create vertical symmetry.
in case of a FCUFS it suffices not to put any obstacles in the path of the direct sound and of the first ceiling reflection, the only other requirement is that the stereo triangle should be symmetrical with regard to any assymetry of the ceiling - I mean any coverings, slopes, whereas in case a of conventional stereo triangle achievement of the required horizontal symmetry imposes total symmetry requirements on the whole room layout and wall materials


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It just became a wash of sound up front with very little detail in the sound field.
sth was definitively done wrong in that particular FCUFS setup because it is certainly not anything like I have ever experienced with such a setup and please don't tell me that I don't know about the details, that I lack reference etc. - I have always used very good headphones as a reference.


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a whole lot of undesirable issues for my taste.
yes perhaps - to Your taste
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Old 14th May 2013, 10:34 AM   #2489
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if it is not in the recording, it is artificial IMO. I like spaciousness as well as the next person, but I would prefer that spaciousness to actually be what the microphone picked up in the hall, or whatever spaciousness is added in the studio via a space generator(which these days are so good you cannot tell the processing from the real thing).
but IT IS all in the recording, You can hear it through headphones - though not externalized, all that is lost in a conventional triangle of front firing setup and then retrevied by a FCUFS setup
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Old 14th May 2013, 10:39 AM   #2490
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I am going to say this. What is considered natural is a matter of subjective opinion. Natural compared to what?
to real live sound sources, they all have ASW which is lost in a conventional setup
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