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Old 29th April 2013, 11:31 AM   #2221
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
The only thing a ceiling flooder has in common with a ceiling speaker is the word "ceiling" in their respective names.
Which is what makes it a good joke!

I understand the concept, I've heard upward firing speakers. They have a certain charm and do work well for certain things.
But hey, ceiling speakers are mostly omni directional too, aren't they?

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Anyway, tell me please do You like this particular speaker (see the image below)? Do You know it?
No, sorry. Never seen it, never heard it. Interesting looking job, tho.
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Old 29th April 2013, 11:33 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
It could also be mastered with computer speakers sitting on a computer desk. The results would not be all that different.
Agreed! I've long been curious about the scoring, recording and mastering of all that background music. Think it's all done out in L.A.?
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Old 29th April 2013, 11:47 AM   #2223
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
Here is how one of the member of the test panels comments on this:
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The single most disturbing reflection in the room is the floor reflection. That is what makes the speaker sound like a radio and not like the actual event. ... The floor reflection absolutely must be handled
see: A round table about room acoustics, and bass traps.
If anyone wonders what would be the second most disturbing reflection in those tests ...
... yes you are right. It is the ceiling reflection.
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Old 29th April 2013, 12:03 PM   #2224
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
If anyone wonders what would be the second most disturbing reflection in those tests ...
... yes you are right. It is the ceiling reflection.
yes indeed! but for a conventional forward firing speaker only
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Old 29th April 2013, 12:19 PM   #2225
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
But hey, ceiling speakers are mostly omni directional too, aren't they?
but they are very different from a flooder because a ceiling speaker generates a very strong floor reflection

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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
No, sorry. Never seen it, never heard it. Interesting looking job, tho.
I thought it's quite famous :

Onkyo GS-1 on thevintageknob.org

‚f‚r-‚P

now its designer is making a bit different speakers although based on exactly the same theory:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:22 PM   #2226
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First of all I think it's the same reason why eg. active crossovers are a consumer market niche. Is anything really wrong with them?
Yes: they're more expensive.

a) The customer has to buy N amps for an N-way system (external controller) or the speaker itself is much more expensive (internal controller).
b) The manufacturer (and the dealer, very important!) who sells a high-priced active speaker can't sell a high-priced Pre-/Power-/Integrated amp.

There ARE economical reasons to not sell active speakers, not technical. There are NO economical reasons to build a flooder (in contrary, you can tell a neat story about this technique, which is always good), but maybe there are technical?

Look, many of those peoples cited here very often (Toole, Olive, Geddes, Keele, ...) worked for big speaker companies (Harman/JBL/EV) where they had the opportunity to do many, many tests with a lot of different people, under very controlled conditions, and there's still no (good selling) flooder from these big companies? Come on.

As I haven't read all posts about the flooder in this thread, maybe you've already wrote it, but what IS a perfect flooder?
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Old 29th April 2013, 04:38 PM   #2227
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Are you guys still exclusively discussing ceiling-firing speakers placed near the floor? The thread should be renamed because it solely circles around the beliefs of a single poster.

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Originally Posted by Baseballbat View Post
what IS a perfect flooder?
I'd like to know that too.
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Old 29th April 2013, 05:53 PM   #2228
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Sorry, made a mistake. Ignore this post.
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Old 29th April 2013, 08:01 PM   #2229
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but they are very different from a flooder because a ceiling speaker generates a very strong floor reflection
Doesn't the flooder benefit from a floor based boundary reinforcement and a strong ceiling reflection? You sit a speaker directly on the floor, and that is a 3db boost at bass frequencies. How is a ceiling reflection any better than a floor reflection when both cause destructive interference?
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Old 29th April 2013, 08:25 PM   #2230
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseballbat View Post
Yes: they're more expensive.
an active system of a comparable quality to a passive system is not at all necessarily more expensive, rather less expensive

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Originally Posted by Baseballbat View Post
Look, many of those peoples cited here very often (Toole, Olive, Geddes, Keele, ...) worked for big speaker companies (Harman/JBL/EV) where they had the opportunity to do many, many tests with a lot of different people, under very controlled conditions, and there's still no (good selling) flooder from these big companies? Come on.
because it would be a game changer, and a game changer is risky for the good old business as usual

my further thougths on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseballbat View Post
As I haven't read all posts about the flooder in this thread, maybe you've already wrote it, but what IS a perfect flooder?
it is constant low directivity coincident (like KEF UniQ)and it is effectively integrated into the floor and into the side wall (Beveridge-style) or the front wall, depending on the proportions of the listening room - effectively integrated into the floor and into the wall by means of convergence baffles - see an example of such a baffle in the Snell Type One

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Last edited by graaf; 29th April 2013 at 08:48 PM.
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