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Old 25th April 2013, 01:33 PM   #2181
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
You said that:

In my monoflooder test the speaker was facing the ceiling. In that case I could not locate the speaker.

Then I tried to turn the speaker facing the listening area, and immediately the speaker was localisable or the sound was coming from the floor.


Have You considered what happened exactly when You turned the speaker towards the listening area?

because You said that:

It was a normal 2-way 12 l box with 1" dome tweeter and 6.5" bass.

so do You really think that what changed after You had turned it towards the listening area was the "fine balance of floor and ceiling reflected sound, and propably direct sound too"?

Could be this fairly typical two-way speaker with 1" dome tweeter that You used for Your test so atypically directional?

When the box was placed on the floor and aimed to the ceiling, there are no dominant direct sound at high freqs but there are multible of reflections (ceiling, walls) arriving almost at the same time window. This propably resulted ambiguity in perceived location.

As soon as the box was turned towards the listening position to get stronger direct sound at high freqs, the image is at the floor.

There is nothing mystical here.

- Elias
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Old 25th April 2013, 01:34 PM   #2182
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post

Quote:
Iíve done a lot of testing on the effects of reflections in rooms, and there was a big, big project in Denmark about twelve years ago, with a lot of companies involved in investigating effects of reflections in rooms. I had the pleasure of being a test person, where we could actually simulate the audible effect of the floor reflection, sidewall reflection, ceiling reflection, and so on independently. The single most disturbing reflection in the room is the floor reflection. That is what makes the speaker sound like a radio and not like the actual event. ... The floor reflection absolutely must be handled
But in which frequency range ?
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Old 25th April 2013, 03:28 PM   #2183
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
As soon as the box was turned towards the listening position to get stronger direct sound at high freqs, the image is at the floor.

There is nothing mystical here
How much stronger? Which frequencies? Has the direct/ceiling reflected sound ratio really changed at all?
Please consider the directivity of a typical 1" dome tweeter.
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Old 25th April 2013, 05:13 PM   #2184
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
But in which frequency range ?
what's Your opinion on that?
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Old 25th April 2013, 06:11 PM   #2185
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post

Quote:
The single most disturbing reflection in the room is the floor reflection. ...
The second worse reflection is the ceiling reflection.
That's bad news for flooder approach How something that is fundamentally based on the second worse, the ceiling reflection, could prove itself into something good, (admitting that it may have avoided the most disturbing, the floor reflection, by a proper design) ?
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Old 25th April 2013, 08:03 PM   #2186
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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and I was hoping for a serious discussion, silly me so long then! bye bye! I am (re) tired
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Old 25th April 2013, 10:39 PM   #2187
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
[reposted]

interesting discussion:
A round table about room acoustics, and bass traps.

Mr Peter Lyngdorf:



it was I believe the Archimedes project led by Bech

floor reflection

floor reflection

floor reflection
So let me get this straight. One guy says the floor reflection should be addressed, and all of a sudden that is a rule or law that should govern accurate reproduction? This is inspite of the fact that all studio have speakers in rooms that have floor reflections, and floor reflections are an everyday part of a humans life?

Everything in a humans auditory life has floor reflections as part of the equation. Traffic on a street, a sonic boom from overhead, jackhammers, voices, airplane traffic overhead, rail trains, subways - jeeze I could go on. Floor reflections are part of the human auditory evolution. Thousands of years ago, animal and human footsteps alerted others of an approach. Remove that cue, and how do you determine approaching things? How do we know when waves crash?

Whoever is selling and parroting this, I am not buying it.
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Old 25th April 2013, 10:42 PM   #2188
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
and I was hoping for a serious discussion, silly me so long then! bye bye! I am (re) tired
This is a classical take my jacks and go home behavior. Listen, folks are going to disagree with you. If this is your response, then you only interest is talking and agreeing with yourself, or others who think exactly like you.

How do you learn from that?

Or maybe it is that you are not are willing to learn, and know it all. I certainly can't say that, which is why I am here.
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Old 26th April 2013, 12:29 AM   #2189
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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What about cancellation of radiation from speaker of wavelengths comparable to those of distance from LF speaker to floor? Might leave a hole in upper LF response. No?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
So let me get this straight. One guy says the floor reflection should be addressed, and all of a sudden that is a rule or law that should govern accurate reproduction? This is inspite of the fact that all studio have speakers in rooms that have floor reflections, and floor reflections are an everyday part of a humans life?

Everything in a humans auditory life has floor reflections as part of the equation. Traffic on a street, a sonic boom from overhead, jackhammers, voices, airplane traffic overhead, rail trains, subways - jeeze I could go on. Floor reflections are part of the human auditory evolution. Thousands of years ago, animal and human footsteps alerted others of an approach. Remove that cue, and how do you determine approaching things? How do we know when waves crash?

Whoever is selling and parroting this, I am not buying it.
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Old 26th April 2013, 12:53 AM   #2190
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
So let me get this straight. One guy says the floor reflection should be addressed, and all of a sudden that is a rule or law that should govern accurate reproduction?
Floor reflections, like capacitors and digital audio are omnipresent and easy to understand. Therefore they are easy and convenient to vilify. Nothing more than that.
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