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Old 16th April 2008, 09:16 PM   #11
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graaf

You are absolutely right, ambiophonics, that was what I meant.
My own experience reflects yours to some extent, and I wish more people would try to experiment with alternative setups in order to take advantage of the room, rather than fight against it.

One thing strike me whenever I go to a live concert.
It is very hard to pinpoint musicians with eyes closed. Many audiophiles try to setup their speakers in order to get razor-sharp imaging which doesn´t exist in real life.
Problem is that rewievers in all the glossy hifi-magazines want us to believe pinpoint imaging is crucial in order to get a good experience

Virtually all recordings is produced to provide satisfactory results on a boombox or in the car, and most sound artificial and downright boring.
Record companys care for the mass-market, teenagers with great buying-power, audiophiles are a small minority by comparison.

Graaf, I want you to do yourself a favor. Do your own recordings to become familiar with, it is essensial when you evaluate your speakers

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sound_picture_cd.htm

Regards
JB
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Old 16th April 2008, 09:17 PM   #12
49 - for the 18th time
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Quote:
Originally posted by graaf
Heil speakers are interesting in combining dipole and omni radiation pattern
But In my loudspeakers I don't want separate tweeters. I "believe" in crossoverless designs. best, graaf
Hello graaf - the only crossover element in my speakers is a small capacitor to keep the low frequencies( < 6 KHz) away from the AMT's - so this is not much to worry about. But we are here to discuss using the room as a speaker and not so much about crossovers as I don't recall crossovers as being part of the room treatment. Also you prefer to use a single FR (Full Range) speaker for personal reasons and I understand this as I also have a pair of Fostex 167's FR's (and no x'overs - just silver wire to the connectors). But there is nothing that says that FR's are the only design suitable for this goal of using the room as part of the speaker system. I seem to recall the Carlssons that you referenced in you 1st post as being a multi element speaker - yes? The Heil AMT tweeter is a superior unit and has stood the test of time and many - many - reviews and I have not been able to find anything that can do better for use as a dipole transducer - certainly not a Fostex (and I can say this because I own and use a combination of both speakers in my HT system).

I have visited the Ambiophonics web site http://www.ambiophonics.org/index.htm and am reviewing the material presented there - it is very interesting in concept and will take some time to absorb.

Considering your comments for using a directional speaker to "beam" off of surfaces (walls - ceilings -etc.) have you considered the use of a wide band horn such as the Eminence APT-200 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=290-536 combined with a suitable LF unit used in an OB configuration (for the LF unit)?
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Old 16th April 2008, 09:37 PM   #13
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by thinkbad


One thing strike me whenever I go to a live concert.
It is very hard to pinpoint musicians with eyes closed. Many audiophiles try to setup their speakers in order to get razor-sharp imaging which doesn´t exist in real life.
Problem is that rewievers in all the glossy hifi-magazines want us to believe pinpoint imaging is crucial in order to get a good experience
I agree absolutely

Quote:
Originally posted by thinkbad


Virtually all recordings is produced to provide satisfactory results on a boombox or in the car, and most sound artificial and downright boring.
Record companys care for the mass-market, teenagers with great buying-power, audiophiles are a small minority by comparison.

sad but true

Quote:
Originally posted by thinkbad


Graaf, I want you to do yourself a favor. Do your own recordings to become familiar with, it is essensial when you evaluate your speakers

actually an audiophile friend of mine is making his own recordings inspired by Linkwitz
for me making them myself would be difficult, I'm not very technical person but maybe sometime I try

best, graaf
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Old 16th April 2008, 09:50 PM   #14
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by c2cthomas


But there is nothing that says that FR's are the only design suitable for this goal of using the room as part of the speaker system. I seem to recall the Carlssons that you referenced in you 1st post as being a multi element speaker - yes?
absolutely, that is correct

Quote:
Originally posted by c2cthomas


The Heil AMT tweeter is a superior unit and has stood the test of time and many - many - reviews and I have not been able to find anything that can do better for use as a dipole transducer - certainly not a Fostex (and I can say this because I own and use a combination of both speakers in my HT system).

Heil is legendary, no doubt about it
I am aware that 8-ich Fostex is no competition
but Heil is also expensive
in my case the reason for going fullrange is also financial
I aim at most cost effective solution
not to mention WAF-and-home decor concerns
I am an audiophile on a budget but not very unhappy - I like it fullrange
but of course this is not the topic of this thread

Quote:
Originally posted by c2cthomas

Considering your comments for using a directional speaker to "beam" off of surfaces (walls - ceilings -etc.) have you considered the use of a wide band horn such as the Eminence APT-200 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=290-536 combined with a suitable LF unit used in an OB configuration (for the LF unit)?
interesting idea - thank You for the suggestion
I thought also of coincident drivers like in KEF UniQ
Seas offers such a driver if I remember correctly

best, graaf
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Old 16th April 2008, 09:55 PM   #15
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally posted by thinkbad

One thing strike me whenever I go to a live concert.
It is very hard to pinpoint musicians with eyes closed. Many audiophiles try to setup their speakers in order to get razor-sharp imaging which doesn´t exist in real life.
Problem is that rewievers in all the glossy hifi-magazines want us to believe pinpoint imaging is crucial in order to get a good experience
Not so. In some situations it may be hard to pin point but not always. To many people seem to think that a big lively concert hall is the reference for a stereo set up. What about those who like to listen to jazz and folk? And studio productions?

That said, a number of years back I did try to pinpoint a small vocal group in a cathedral like church in Stockholm. The acoustics was very rich and reverberation several seconds due to the size of the church. I had no problem with localization of the five performers even at a distance of aprox. 15 meters. They stood in a semicircle/arch less than a meter between the performers.

Even though most of the energy is reflected in such a performance we still have this extraordinary ability to hear direction on transientlike sounds. Consonants give away more than continuous sounds of course but even throat sounds (vocal cords giving "buzz and noise" at higher levels.. especially male voices) can give clues.

I for one also want to be able to recreate my pals when I record them in a livingroom or outdoors.. is such situations the pin point is extremly sharp.

So of course it exists in real life.

It also happens to be like this.. when your stereo have the ability to give good focus most other parameters fall in place as well.



/Peter
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Old 16th April 2008, 10:30 PM   #16
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pan


So of course it exists in real life.

well, maybe it all boils down to a question how "pin point" is "pin point"?

to make myself clear - I don't know the experience of other contributors to this thread but loudspeaker and set ups I write about here give me precise imaging, not uncomfortably "diffuse" nor "vague" at all
not at all "un-pinpoint" in any negative sense

and absolutely more realistic the standard stereo - occupying a real space, 3D, very palpable images

best,
graaf
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Old 16th April 2008, 10:53 PM   #17
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pan


Consonants give away more than continuous sounds of course but even throat sounds (vocal cords giving "buzz and noise" at higher levels.. especially male voices) can give clues.

I for one also want to be able to recreate my pals when I record them in a livingroom or outdoors.. is such situations the pin point is extremly sharp.

/Peter
I don't like the adjective "pin point" I think it is very misleading

because we can ask - how much is it "pin point"? of the size of the pin?
are the singers or any instruments "pin size"? etc.
of course not

I assume that by "pin point" You mean "precise". Please correct me if I'm wrong

best, graaf
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Old 16th April 2008, 11:02 PM   #18
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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/Peter
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Old 16th April 2008, 11:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pan

That said, a number of years back I did try to pinpoint a small vocal group in a cathedral like church in Stockholm. The acoustics was very rich and reverberation several seconds due to the size of the church. I had no problem with localization of the five performers even at a distance of aprox. 15 meters. They stood in a semicircle/arch less than a meter between the performers.
Let me guess - you saw them there standing, closed your eyes and said "yup, they are in a semicircle/arch less than a meter between" ?
Or did you guess their positions without seeing them first ?

That makes all the difference in the world. Just like with sighted amplifier tests.
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Old 17th April 2008, 06:40 AM   #20
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Eyes closed of course.

But yes, I did see them before I closed my eyes. Thing is I listened to a piece with eyes closed and did not know who sang which parts but I was myself relatively surprised to notice how obvious it was when someone started to sing. That is it was easy to hear that the sound suddenly came from a new position. Listening to the start of the words/phrases every voice had its own place in space.

I have done a lot of these tests in various acoustics and with various sources of sound. I write and record music, sometimes with a friend that also is a musician and use to produce music/radio jingles. We have recorded in rooms the size of a bedroom up to hangar sized halls. Building/arranging studios and listening rooms from 10 to 100 meter squared we have had great opportunity to test the room sound and localization of sound sources in close to anechoic to lively acoustics in the same room.


Without this ability our ancestors would have been tigerfood and we would not exist.


/Peter
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