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Old 26th February 2013, 03:07 PM   #1851
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Elias, what would you say about a physical barrier with dipoles, ambio like, all the way from the nose to the front wall? Is it worth trying at all? anything to be gained?

Sorry Markus, I understood it the wrong way.. Flooder like.
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Old 26th February 2013, 03:40 PM   #1852
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Elias, what would you say about a physical barrier with dipoles, ambio like, all the way from the nose to the front wall? Is it worth trying at all? anything to be gained?
I was into it 10 years ago. I know it works very well. Simplest barrier is a matress, everyone should have one at their house. Testing it is no problem since all you need to do for starters is the barrier and move your speakers close to each others.

At the time I did try dipoles too, they were dipoles in the midrange.

This kind of stereo presentation is however opposite of what this thread is trying to achieve. Ambiophonics assumes no room, and it will most likely benefit from added room absorption. So one cannot say Ambiophonics works in harmony with the room.

Another thing which I found limiting was the smallish listening spot. If you are willing to remain in the spot, then it is better than conventional stereo triangle. But if you find the spot considerable limiting your freedom, like I find, then I have moved on to look for alternatives.

I've come to the conclusion that if the requirement is to have no sweet spot, the room is there for your service. So take an advantage of your room reflections, do not fight against them.


- Elias
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:41 AM   #1853
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
take an advantage of your room reflections, do not fight against them.
- Elias
problem is that people just love to fight and to FORCE things and to spend as much money on weapons as possible and to boast about their weapons

not just in war - in pretty much every area of life

which explains why such an intelligent approach has not won more popularity so far, because:
Quote:
most hi end consumers [=trendsetters for serious hifi industry] would rather spend thousands on tweeking a room rather than buying a loudspeaker that uses the room to its benefit
on room treatments and on boutique cabling

too good a loudspeaker is just bad for the business

an old friend of mine (where are You???) once told me a story

He has a very advanced unconventional speaker setup, not an orthodox flooder or any other "type" - quite one of a kind, but also a result of out-of-the-box thinking

He was visited by a guy - a hi-end audiophile (Tidal speakers, Mark Levinson electronics, boutique cables, diamond tweeters etc.), the guy almost laughed at what He saw and what certainly looked to him as a mess of weird garbage but then he was quite floored by the SOUND and finally said to my friend: "what's that ? I have never heard such a thing"

most funny in all this was that the guy marvelled at a classical music recording that was ..."an ordinary 224 mp3"

...because when the space is done correctly, when there is this overwhelming sense of realism, many details - various audiophile obsessions - become unimportant, submerged beneath the BEAUTY OF MUSIC that just flows into your soul
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Last edited by graaf; 27th February 2013 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:07 AM   #1854
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post

...because when the space is done correctly, when there is this overwhelming sense of realism, many details - various audiophile obsessions - become unimportant, submerged beneath the BEAUTY OF MUSIC that just flows into your soul
Sure, same happens sometimes with the crappy car radio back from work.. but.. that's because the music IS beautiful. Who cares about top of the range audiophile recordings in caves hitting sticks and bones, meaningless!

I agree with you, and I also put space rendering as top priority, but the system has to work with all recordings.
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:28 AM   #1855
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Sure, same happens sometimes with the crappy car radio back from work.. but.. that's because the music IS beautiful. Who cares about top of the range audiophile recordings in caves hitting sticks and bones, meaningless!

I agree with you, and I also put space rendering as top priority, but the system has to work with all recordings.
certainly - therefore I think that an adjustable loudspeaker is needed, or just a suitable monitor-type loudspeaker (separate subwoofers) and an adjustable speaker stand which would allow simple and fast adjusting height, toeing in and out and tilting the loudspeaker back and forth
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:19 AM   #1856
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
problem is that people just love to fight and to FORCE things
For me it was always more of desperation to find something that I knew must have existed but I couldn't find. Listening to people that didn't always understand what they were talking about...and that included myself. Brute force makes good when you're trying to learn. Makes for a good hobby

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Sure, same happens sometimes with the crappy car radio back from work..
Some crappy car radios really had me scratching my head. Of course now, I can surmise what it was about them, and they were always good at something but never good at everything.
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:56 PM   #1857
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Just found these 'flooders'

Pres Speakers
Pres 1981-83


Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 1st March 2013, 05:01 PM   #1858
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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This also interesting, from 70's
The '70s


Front and rear

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:08 PM   #1859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Sorry Markus, I understood it the wrong way.. Flooder like.
I've tried that but it's nothing you want to do because the ceiling reflection leads to coloration and adds not much to perceived spaciousnes. Worst case the ceiling reflection lifts certain sounds to an unnaturally high location.
Reflections from the sides and from side-high are more desirable. Try toeing them out.

Last edited by markus76; 1st March 2013 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:20 PM   #1860
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I've tried that but it's nothing you want to do because the ceiling reflection leads to coloration and adds not much to perceived spaciousnes. Worst case the ceiling reflection lifts certain sounds to an unnaturally high location.
That is not the perception I get. Currently I have 3 speaker matrix all aimed directly to the ceiling.

I don't perceive sounds unnaturally elevated. Aiming to ceiling adds to spaciousness.
In comparison if speakers are aimed to the listener typically the image stays at the speakers.

I don't have any acoustic treatments in my room except normal furnituring, curtains, carpet, wall decorations, paintings etc.

You have to get rid of your front wall absorption ! That is the failure !


- Elias
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