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Old 25th February 2013, 09:28 AM   #1811
graaf is online now graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
I'm using something remotely similar in my current test setup !

I have 3 ceiling firing speakers lifted at almost ear height, and they are driven by linear stereo matrix of x=0.5.

- Elias
so combination of a tall flooder plus matrix of 0.5

interesting evolution of Your concept!

what sort of speakers You use? how tall? The Direct Acoustics speakers are acoustically ~60 cm tall
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Old 25th February 2013, 09:42 AM   #1812
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is the height meant to "cancel" the direct sound?
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Old 25th February 2013, 11:53 AM   #1813
graaf is online now graaf  Poland
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is the height meant to "cancel" the direct sound?
in no way it can but certainly it reduces the direct to reverberant sound ratio (or more precisely the direct vs ceiling reflected sound ratio)

it seems that a certain ratio is optimal
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Last edited by graaf; 25th February 2013 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 25th February 2013, 01:07 PM   #1814
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another example of a flooder that is a (relatively short) speaker that deliberately uses (and increases the level of) the ceiling reflection and avoids (decreases the level of) the floor reflection to get the sound right - the highly acclaimed Gradient 1.5:

Click the image to open in full size.

the flooding driver covers the range of 200-2200 Hz, well the tweeter is also aiming significantly upwards, so it falls under the above definition too

more: Specifications Helsinki
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Last edited by graaf; 25th February 2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 25th February 2013, 09:22 PM   #1815
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
so combination of a tall flooder plus matrix of 0.5

interesting evolution of Your concept!

what sort of speakers You use? how tall? The Direct Acoustics speakers are acoustically ~60 cm tall

Six months ago this was my experimental system: 3 dipoles with FRS8 elements and linear stereo matrix x=0.5

Click the image to open in full size.



Then a while back I put extra FRS8 in closed tubes and aimed them upwards. I have 3 of them and run them through the matrix. Note that the dipole baffles are still in place but no signal is driven to the dipoles ! I found that the baffles improve the sound of the flooder tubes ! It seems that 2pi radiation is much better than 4pi true omni.

Click the image to open in full size.


I could say that perhaps good idea would be to place the upwards firing tubes against the front wall. In my room it's a bit hard since my front wall has window and balcony door etc. So I'm using the baffles as virtual walls


- Elias
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Old 25th February 2013, 09:28 PM   #1816
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

Isn't it amazing how small they really are ?

I didn't think about them in terms of flooder before (maybe flooder does not sound enough high class for Gradient ), but indeed the ceiling reflection has a particular effect on the behaviour of this speaker.

Also in my next speaker I'm going to employ upwards tilted tweeter.


- Elias
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Old 26th February 2013, 08:14 AM   #1817
graaf is online now graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Isn't it amazing how small they really are ?

I didn't think about them in terms of flooder before (maybe flooder does not sound enough high class for Gradient ), but indeed the ceiling reflection has a particular effect on the behaviour of this speaker.
it is and it sounds quite like a flooder :

Quote:
The Helsinkis' sense of spaciousness was amazing. And it was natural in a way that I found difficult to describe.
...
I paused to listen to a Brahms piano concerto, and thrilled to the strangely great way the sound in my room mimicked that of a concert hall, in a spatial sense.
...
Instruments had presence in a good flesh-and-blood sense, not in that awful, fussy, typical "high-end audio" manner.
...
I can better describe what it is that made the Helsinkis' spaciousness so distinctive: I wasn't hearing an airy artifact, but rather the sounds of instruments and voices opening up naturally before me.
...
Some individual sounds grew, spatially, as they opened up, yet the overall sound wasn't the least bit airy per se. Even as they decayed, the sounds of violins and clarinets had texture.

I'd never before heard anything like it.
from: Gradient Helsinki 1.5 loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com

Quote:
The specific area in which the Helsinki 1.5s truly excel is the reproduction of spatial information.
...
The Helsinki 1.5s not only disappear as sources themselves, they make in effect your listening room disappear from the sonic picture, or at least remarkably close to that.

...
it is overwhelming and immediate. Music recorded in a large space sounds enormous. Music recorded close up in smaller spaces sounds to that scale. And everything in between is similarly reproduced as it is in spatial terms.
from: Gradient Helsinki 1.5 Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound

BTW it's quite a pity (and hilariously funny at the same time, as it frequently happens) to see that the exprienced TAS reviewer is so close-minded that he honestly believes that no significant ceiling reflection contributes to the sound of 1.5s!

Quote:
the midrange is sent to the ceiling at an angle that makes the reflection arrive behind the listener at an ordinary listening distance, while again the high-frequency driver is too directional to reflect off the ceiling to any extent
Would You believe??? Such pure nonsense! Such idiocy!!!

sweet Jesus! have mercy upon us!!

Imagine how stupid a well educated and an experienced person can be when completely blinded by strong preconceptions!

just UNBELIEVABLE!
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Last edited by graaf; 26th February 2013 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 26th February 2013, 08:51 AM   #1818
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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You have to reduce consuming those magazines in order to maintain your mental balance

Everyone knows the perceptual effect of ceiling reflected sound, when it is done intentionally and correctly.


How about DIY Gradient instead ? Anyone ?
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:26 AM   #1819
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Everyone knows the perceptual effect of ceiling reflected sound, when it is done intentionally and correctly.
Phantom source elevation? That's what I get. I found side reflections more important for spaciousness.

The tilted Behringers in the following configuration project center sources at about 2/3 of the wall height. Percussive sounds even higher. The toed-out Nathan's work much better.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:38 AM   #1820
lolo is offline lolo  France
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ceiling reflections are good, IF they come from the sides, not from the center. Unless you want to kill the stereo separation?
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