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Old 5th February 2013, 02:45 PM   #1801
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Maybe you want to try as well, same tracks?
-Jarre Oxygen part I & II
-Fareinheit Fair Enough n.1
-Roach Lost Pieces n.2&3
-Ghost in the Shell n.8&9

But yes, placement of the sources was rather wrong and the AS did not build well. They are all heavy processed recordings, I imagine. To check, I use a cheap but full omnidirectionnal small tube FR speaker far from bondaries and in the nearfield. Like a headphone but with correct source placement.
Obviously the most important to me is to get the natural sounding recordings right, but eventually, you want ALL of them to sound right and not be limited.

Last edited by lolo; 5th February 2013 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 5th February 2013, 05:39 PM   #1802
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Lolo,
I compared Steve Roach and Telefon Tel Aviv to your ECM piece (all from YouTube).
The voices in "Mistico Mediterraneo" are well placed but widened by heavy reverb. In contrast your other sources have a much finer defined audio scene regarding both source size and depth structure. It may have occured to you that the voices and the trumpet in Mistico have almost no attac while in the other tracks there are lots of small "ping ding tzings", which get lost in a highly reverberant playback situation.

Just my 2C.
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Old 6th February 2013, 07:15 AM   #1803
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Thanks Rudolf, the original ECM recording does have artificial reverb as they all do, but certainly not as much as the live version on youtube which sounds like pure mush. What I maybe needed to add is that sitting the speakers back and angled towards listening point put everything back in order, but then the ECM one lost its magic somewhat.
Without concluding anything, this experiment just showed me that some recordings do benefit from added reflexions, some don't. I reached the same point when trying to cut the dipole back wave. Probably nothing new under the sun for you guys!

which get lost in a highly reverberant playback situation.

At this stage the room has a fairly uniform RT of 0.5s

Last edited by lolo; 6th February 2013 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 6th February 2013, 08:49 AM   #1804
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Without concluding anything, this experiment just showed me that some recordings do benefit from added reflexions, some don't.
Your experiment seems to suggest that "wet" recordings ie. those with recorded reverb benefit from even more added reflections in room while "dry" recordings like to stay "dry", am I right?
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Old 6th February 2013, 09:13 AM   #1805
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Yep!

I believe the theory about coupled spaces says:
-the reverb of the reception space adds to the recorded space.
-if the spaces have same reverb, the result is around +20% reverb.
-the drier space will lean towards the longer reverb.

Obviously the ITD is a very important player, that's also why I tried this.
In recordings we deal with reverb from almost nul to well over 2sec. I can't see how we can sort this out without modular acoustics, be it passive or active.. But hey, I am a beginner!
It's a fascinating journey though.

Last edited by lolo; 6th February 2013 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 6th February 2013, 10:30 AM   #1806
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Yep!
I believe the theory about coupled spaces says:
-the reverb of the reception space adds to the recorded space.
-if the spaces have same reverb, the result is around +20% reverb.
-the drier space will lean towards the longer reverb.
Have You read the following posts in this thread?

simple dereverberation experiment

Experiment’s conclusion: recorded reverberation is far more audible than live reverberation, at least for a simple recording technique


Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Obviously the ITD is a very important player, that's also why I tried this.
I think that perhaps having the speaker as close to the floor as possible is also generally benefitial, Snell Type 1 (discussed earlier in this thread) is an extreme example of this approach but check out also Mapleshade Bedrock stands and users opinions on them:
Maple Bedrock-Mapleshade


Quote:
Only low, on-the-floor mounting can make smallish speakers sound so huge, warm and transparent
...
Surprisingly, the soundstage image floats well above the floor
no sound-heard-as-coming-from-the-floor nonsense


Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
In recordings we deal with reverb from almost nul to well over 2sec. I can't see how we can sort this out without modular acoustics, be it passive or active..
perhaps what is needed is a CD speaker that can be rotated to an up-firing position for one kind of recordings and then rotated back into forward firing position for others? without any need for moving the whole speaker in the room
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Last edited by graaf; 6th February 2013 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 6th February 2013, 10:50 AM   #1807
lolo is offline lolo  France
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thanks, I shall check all this out!
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:26 PM   #1808
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
throw away the diffusors and make the top of the box just a little bit slanted and here You are:

...

Direct Acoustics Silent II

...
another review here: direct_acoustics

Quote:
This is an area that many of you will disagree with me, but I think the imaging characteristics of these speakers are not just acceptable, but in their own way, superb. As one would expect from a speaker placed just a few inches from the wall, there is not a lot of image depth. Nor, for that matter, is there the pinpoint, specific location of everything that you get out of small mini monitors (which I think generally make too many instruments sound unnaturally small). However, what you do get, and what I think is very valid, is a massively huge stage, both laterally and vertically, as if the entire wall behind the speakers was now a window (or maybe a movie screen) that has become the stage. Enhancing that effect is the fact that, except for some added sound effect or from very poor recordings, no sounds ever appear to come directly from the speakers. The Silent Speakers do the disappearing act better than pretty much any speaker I have ever reviewed (please note that this is true in my system using the Audio Space Line-2 preamp, but not quite so much when using my PS Audio 4H passive preamp, where the stage is a little smaller).

One example of this is the beginning of the track Wish You Were Here, from Pink Floyd's album of the same name. At the beginning, the guitar is played through (or least made to sound like) a table radio, coming from just one speaker. With the Silent Speakers, this sounds like a real table radio sitting on top of the speaker, as if it was a small table. Then, when the lead guitar starts up (a superb recording of a guitar) it sounds remarkably natural both in tone and in size, floating in space is if the guitarist was standing right there between the speakers.

Last comment image-wise, is that there is no real sweet spot, or maybe it's that the sweet spot is about ten feet wide. I can sit anywhere on the coach in my listening room and the sound doesn't really change. It is a little brighter when I stand up, but that's about it. These are great speakers if you actually move around or do other stuff with music playing!

I don't normally discuss imaging this much in my reviews, but I have been continually taken in by the overall imaging of this system.
similar tall flooders are Compass/Starter and Arc by Shahinian:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

and Enigma by Heed Audio:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

more: Heed Enigma - Technical info
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Last edited by graaf; 24th February 2013 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 25th February 2013, 07:50 AM   #1809
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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nice review of the Heed Audio Enigma speakers:
Digital Audio Review by John Darko Heed Audio Enigma 5 loudspeaker review

Quote:
Move around the room and the Heeds’ stellar imaging remains rock solid. Ambient information and ‘air’ are also strong points.
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Old 25th February 2013, 08:17 AM   #1810
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
another review here: direct_acoustics

I'm using something remotely similar in my current test setup !

I have 3 ceiling firing speakers lifted at almost ear height, and they are driven by linear stereo matrix of x=0.5.


Especially this one is true:
direct_acoustics
Quote:
Last comment image-wise, is that there is no real sweet spot, or maybe it's that the sweet spot is about ten feet wide. I can sit anywhere on the coach in my listening room and the sound doesn't really change. It is a little brighter when I stand up, but that's about it.

I like the effect myself not being restricted into a tiny spot while listening.


- Elias
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