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Old 4th February 2013, 10:18 AM   #1791
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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new Duevel Enterprise:

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more flooder-like then the Planets - basically the same crossover point (somewhere aourn 4 kHz), but bigger midwoofer and much less of the splashing-the-sound-around, no diffusor for the midbass, it's just shooting at the ceiling

and apparently signficantly better soundstage performance than the Planets with their big ball above the midbass:

Quote:
The 3D image appears to be larger and more stable, with a better focus on instruments and singers.
[Review] Duevel Enterprise omnidirectional loudspeakers [English]
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Old 4th February 2013, 11:28 AM   #1792
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throw away the diffusors and make the top of the box just a little bit slanted and here You are:

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Direct Acoustics Silent II

here reviewed by Stereophile:
Direct Acoustics Silent Speaker II | Stereophile.com
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Old 4th February 2013, 07:38 PM   #1793
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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^That's nothing new, Sonab did that in the sixties-seventies

CarlssonPlanet.com • Everything about the Carlsson loudspeakers

I have a pair of these at my summer cabin. They fill the room with music (ambience) and must be placed quite far away from each other to get stereo image

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Old 5th February 2013, 08:28 AM   #1794
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
^That's nothing new,
who claims it is "new"?

actually there is a whole lot of information on Carlsson Orthoacoustics in this very thread

in fact truth is that there is nothing new in this business for a long long time
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Old 5th February 2013, 08:30 AM   #1795
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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ps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
must be placed quite far away from each other to get stereo image
try Beveridge placement (described in this thread) if You can
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Old 5th February 2013, 09:15 AM   #1796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
ps.

try Beveridge placement (described in this thread) if You can
I tried that recently actually, with two small and cheap bookshelf speakers. WOW! some recording greatly benefit from it, the effect is just crazy, ECM label for example. For others, it's a big mess. The room is 5.2m wide, speakers where slightly angled towards listening position at the apex and placed 1.8m from the front walls so there was a decent ITG gap.
But what is most important, the ITD gap, the tweeters firing up, or the larger spread?
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Old 5th February 2013, 10:19 AM   #1797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
I tried that recently actually, with two small and cheap bookshelf speakers. WOW! some recording greatly benefit from it, the effect is just crazy, ECM label for example. For others, it's a big mess. The room is 5.2m wide, speakers where slightly angled towards listening position at the apex and placed 1.8m from the front walls so there was a decent ITG gap.
But what is most important, the ITD gap, the tweeters firing up, or the larger spread?
how exactly were the speakers placed? on the floor or raised on stands? I understand they were not firing up?

I would say that everything is important but for the Beveridge placement most important is that reflections off the front/back/opposite wall are more delayed than in conventional stereo triangle and the larger spread ...but in the case You described it was probably too large - 5.2m? what was the listener's distance from the stereo base?

what is important in the original Beveridge setup is also elimination of the floor and ceiling reflections by means of a true line source

in the setup I have proposed here the floor reflection is eliminated as well - with very short directional speaker firing up - and the ceiling reflection is perceived by our sense of hearing as a part of THE primary source of sound BUT - unlike a ceiling speaker - a source that doesn't create its own first order floor reflection - that is I believe a very important difference


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Originally Posted by lolo View Post
For others, it's a big mess
what others? ECM recording are famous for their quality

what kind of a big mess precisely? what happened?
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Old 5th February 2013, 11:36 AM   #1798
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Here is a quick sketch to explain better:

Click the image to open in full size.

I did seat the speakers on two low chairs, around 50cm from floor and also straight on the floor, firing up but slightly angled towards the listening spot. I also Eq by ear with electri-Q. My attempts with two bare B200 did not bring anything good so I sticked with the bookshelves.

The reason I tried that is I could not get a realistic image with the usual 2.5m spread on this track (the original record is much better) which I also attended live, a moving piece for my wife and I.

A Filetta, Paolo Fresu, Daniele di Bonaventura "Mistico Mediterraneo" - Pommiers 2011 fragm. 1 - YouTube

Keep in mind that the speakers used are very cheap, maybe 50€/pair, but I wasn't after quality, just image presentation.

Well, when the group singers start on the left, instantanely my wife and I looked at each other and thought, holly cow, they are here, the size, placement and spread of the source became right. Same happened on all ECM recordings I tried after, they just sounded "right".
Then, classical rated from "ok", to poor. I tried many as well and we are still only talking image presentation, nothing else.
Last, studio electronic music. I used Jarre original Oxygen, Telefon Tel Aviv, Steve Roach Lost pieces and some Kenji Kawai tracks. That did not work at all.

As a sidenote, my ceiling is only 2.3 high. Lately I managed to get my dipoles further in the room whilst not loosing too much spread. The longer ITD gap made the speaker really dissappear on almost EVERY recording.

Hence my question, what is the most important:
-the spread? I believe for stereo it has to be large. So we need large rooms unfortunately.
-ITD: something great happends when you get around 10ms.
-tweeters firing up? I don't know, haven't tried that with the dipoles.

I could also compare with a true omni source in the nearfield. The thing is, I would love my system to be on the wall, for convenience and aesthetics, so will not give up just now on that.

Voila, my 2c!
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Old 5th February 2013, 11:50 AM   #1799
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Carlsson / Sonab speakers are designed to sit next to wall. The bass output is designed to take benefit of boundary gain. I have never had a chance to place them optimally for a uniform stereo triangle, in three different houses! I've had them for 15 years now.

It is almost impossible to place any speaker optimally or orthodoxically at home. When I lived alone, I had big 3-ways that had wheels - it was easy to roll them to optimal position.
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Old 5th February 2013, 01:05 PM   #1800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Here is a quick sketch to explain better:
...Voila, my 2c!
thank You so much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolo View Post
Then, classical rated from "ok", to poor. I tried many as well and we are still only talking image presentation, nothing else.
Last, studio electronic music. I used Jarre original Oxygen, Telefon Tel Aviv, Steve Roach Lost pieces and some Kenji Kawai tracks. That did not work at all.
what was wrong? relative sizes of the virtual sound sources, their placement or spread?

I wonder what makes the difference between ECM recordings and the rest that You listened to
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