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Old 2nd October 2012, 07:56 AM   #1711
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLS View Post
hmmm ...

I haven't heard the Snell. From my own flooder tweeters (tweeters on floor and up-firing), I get very good imaging of normal height.
certainly Snell "Type" 1 was suboptimal as an implementation of FCUFC (floor coupled up-firing configuration) principle

but it is an interesting early historical example and Mr Crofts' comments on the problem of soundstage height throw some light on the question of better performance (in that regard) of the implementation of FCUFC as proposed in this thread

Last edited by graaf; 2nd October 2012 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 08:16 AM   #1712
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Originally Posted by CLS View Post
hmmm ...

I haven't heard the Snell. From my own flooder tweeters (tweeters on floor and up-firing), I get very good imaging of normal height.

Maybe the central channel helps pulling it up, but I don't sense the changes in height from left-center-right panning as well.

Maybe I could try turning off the central channel to see if there'd be any problem in height.
Phantom imaging works not only horizontally but vertically too. There's not much literature about it. Audyssey wrote a paper about it. There's also a JASA paper by Roffler/Butler "Factors That Influence the Localization of Sound in the Vertical Plane".

Really no "magic" in a "flodder". If a design creates a high level of reflections, spaciousness and ASW increase. (Phantom) sources are no longer pin-point sharp and it becomes impossible to tell if the image is directly at the floor.
Depending on the level of reflections, image shift will occur which elevates (phantom) sources.

Listening room specific spaciousness might be a pleasant effect for certain recordings but not for each and every recording.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 10:38 AM   #1713
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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My listening room, also my living room, is very reflective.

I've tried several positions for the flooder tweeters:

1) right behind main OB (visually blocked)
2) behind main OB, pushed against the wall, not entirely visually blocked
3) bring them upfront, beside main OB -- side by side, tweeters at the inside

By intuition, the tweeters on floor, especially not visually blocked, would greatly affect the perception - they're down there. But actually not the case, at least in my room.

The tweeters operate above 3kHz with shallow filter below that. Cases 1) and 2) mentioned above are sounding very similar, or I should say I can't notice any significant differece. Maybe at the threshold between really-something and mental effect.

Case 3) is interesting, I can see the tweeters lying there, but the sound images are obviously not. They are floating around. The major difference with other 2 is the sense of distances with images. This is of course much closer, with some emphasis on various details, and overall a shallower depth.

Slightly different in spaciousness, all 3 provide very well-defined imaging. I'd not say pinpoint, because their sizes are different, as they should be.

By the way, I often listen with my eyes closed.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 11:03 AM   #1714
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CLS, not sure what you placed where. Pictures would certainly help.

I'm not saying what you hear is wrong and I certainly don't want to criticize your preference but you compare one low D/R scenario to another low D/R scenario without any reference to a high D/R scenario.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:10 PM   #1715
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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but in case of a mono flooder the direct sound was not absorbed, am I right?
In my monoflooder test the speaker was facing the ceiling. In that case I could not locate the speaker.

Then I tried to turn the speaker facing the listening area, and immediately the speaker was localisable or the sound was coming from the floor.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:11 PM   #1716
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLS View Post
My listening room, also my living room, is very reflective.

I've tried several positions for the flooder tweeters:

1) right behind main OB (visually blocked)
2) behind main OB, pushed against the wall, not entirely visually blocked
3) bring them upfront, beside main OB -- side by side, tweeters at the inside

Is your tweeter a horn tweeter ? How is the directivity ?
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:19 PM   #1717
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
In my monoflooder test the speaker was facing the ceiling. In that case I could not locate the speaker.

Then I tried to turn the speaker facing the listening area, and immediately the speaker was localisable or the sound was coming from the floor.
now - what was the directivity of the speaker? Wasn't it a typical directivity of a 2-way minimonitor?
Was there any significant increase of the level of the direct sound when it was tilted vs lying flat?
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:19 PM   #1718
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In my monoflooder test the speaker was facing the ceiling. In that case I could not locate the speaker.

Then I tried to turn the speaker facing the listening area, and immediately the speaker was localisable or the sound was coming from the floor.
I've experience the same using a 8" full range speaker (Visaton B200). Aiming at the first ceiling reflection point lifted the sound stage from the floor. The reflection was even so strong that certain sounds came from a location near the ceiling. It's a simple breakdown of precedence with our brain trying to make sense of the additional sound source and fusing everything into one large spacious image.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:22 PM   #1719
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
what the precedence effect has to do with sound source localisation mechanisms in the vertical plane?
There are many systems employing 3D stereo field. Ambisonic comes to mind first Others include 3D vector amplitude panning, like the one proposed by Lokki.



Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
look at the picture below and then try to draw lines for specular reflections from the tweeter towards the listener
I don't understand the point. Sound direction can be localised without any reflections. In Snell Type 1 there is strong direct sound from the tweeter, which can result to image localised low.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 12:29 PM   #1720
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Was there any significant increase of the level of the direct sound when it was tilted vs lying flat?
Yes there was a big difference in the treble range. I posted measurements long ago in some of these threads.
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