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Old 27th September 2012, 12:18 PM   #1691
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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no language problem really, I am sure that all Swedes there understand English
But I don't understand Swedish and could not figure out how to sign up or post.
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Old 27th September 2012, 12:25 PM   #1692
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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But I don't understand Swedish and could not figure out how to sign up or post.
google translate is pretty good at Swedish, at least good enough to guide Your through the sign-up process
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:45 AM   #1693
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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this one looks like a suitable loudspeaker for a floor coupled up-firing configuration (FCUFC? ) it's an 8 inches Tannoy concentric

ps.
for the listener's distance from the speaker of ~250 cm and ceiling height of ~250 cm as well the direct sound that reaches the listener is radiated by the speaker at ~70 degrees and the sound reflected via ceiling is radiated by the speaker at ~35 degrees
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File Type: jpg 8 inches Tannoy concentric.jpg (314.8 KB, 253 views)

Last edited by graaf; 28th September 2012 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 1st October 2012, 08:27 AM   #1694
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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this one looks like a suitable loudspeaker for a floor coupled up-firing configuration (FCUFC? ) it's an 8 inches Tannoy concentric

ps.
for the listener's distance from the speaker of ~250 cm and ceiling height of ~250 cm as well the direct sound that reaches the listener is radiated by the speaker at ~70 degrees and the sound reflected via ceiling is radiated by the speaker at ~35 degrees
I have been thinking that we have on this forum reports from very diverse yet effective applications of the FCUFC principle including some speakers with much wider dispersion than 8 inches fullrange or coaxial

so perhaps the source of the Snell "Type 1"'s problem with elevation of the soundstage wasn't inadequate ratio of direct/ceiling reflected sound in the >2kHz band (that is of too much direct vs reflected) - after all the frequency band was handled by a small tweeter in "Type 1" so there certainly was a plenty of ceiling reflected sound

OTOH the crossover frequency was set at 2 kHz and the midfoower was 10 inches firing forward, just slightly tilted back, so most probably there was very little ceiling reflected sound in the 1<2 kHz band and in addition to that a very early floor reflection off the "wheelchair ramp" reached the listener, it didn't cause any frequency response related problems because the angles of the baffle and the "ramp" had been carefully calculated and matched BUT the problem of perception of the impulse reflected off the floor (the "ramp") remained - and the speaker thus was partly unmasked as physical source of sound at a particular height causing sometimes perception of the soundstage that was too low
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Old 1st October 2012, 09:48 AM   #1695
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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I'm not convinced yet. Looks like Snell "Type 1" tweeter has too much direct sound. This is similar to my flooder experiments where aiming the box more towards the listening area than the ceiling resulted localisation of the speaker at the floor or the direction of the sound was very low.


And, in my experience in the flooder type of a speaker the direct sound to reflection ratio should be very small. This could be listener dependent however ! If one looks results from any typical psychoacoustic test, therre are individual variances in the order of several dB. This difference could lead to quite different speaker design depending of the individual.

Maybe Snell designed the speaker mostly for himself, and found it to satisfy his own perception.

Similar possible occurance comes in mind with Walter Schubach with Stereolith speaker. Possibly

- Elias
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Last edited by Elias; 1st October 2012 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 1st October 2012, 10:27 AM   #1696
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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interesting discussion:
A round table about room acoustics, and bass traps.

Mr Peter Lyngdorf:
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Iíve done a lot of testing on the effects of reflections in rooms, and there was a big, big project in Denmark about twelve years ago, with a lot of companies involved in investigating effects of reflections in rooms. I had the pleasure of being a test person, where we could actually simulate the audible effect of the floor reflection, sidewall reflection, ceiling reflection, and so on independently. The single most disturbing reflection in the room is the floor reflection. That is what makes the speaker sound like a radio and not like the actual event. ... The floor reflection absolutely must be handled
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Old 1st October 2012, 10:44 AM   #1697
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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So if you listen to ceiling speakers standing on your head it will not sound like a radio ?
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Old 1st October 2012, 10:45 AM   #1698
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
I'm not convinced yet. Looks like Snell "Type 1" tweeter has too much direct sound. This is similar to my flooder experiments where aiming the box more towards the listening area than the ceiling resulted localisation of the speaker at the floor or the direction of the sound was very low.
what kind of speaker You used for Your tests?

tilted position results both in higher direct/reflected ratio and audibility of a floor reflection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
This could be listener dependent however ! If one looks results from any typical psychoacoustic test, therre are individual variances in the order of several dB. This difference could lead to quite different speaker design depending of the individual.

Maybe Snell designed the speaker mostly for himself, and found it to satisfy his own perception.

Similar possible occurance comes in mind with Walter Schubach with Stereolith speaker. Possibly

- Elias
yes, that's possible
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Old 1st October 2012, 10:47 AM   #1699
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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So if you listen to ceiling speakers standing on your head it will not sound like a radio ?
I don't think so, You would have rather to sit on a ceiling upside down, like a bat
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Old 1st October 2012, 12:20 PM   #1700
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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what kind of speaker You used for Your tests?

tilted position results both in higher direct/reflected ratio and audibility of a floor reflection
It was a normal 2-way 12 l box with 1" dome tweeter and 6.5" bass.

There could have been floor reflection with tilted position, but the speaker was also on the floor with tweeter height about 20 cm. In addition there was carpet below the speaker and between the listening position.

On the other hand Snell type 1 also has floor reflection for the tweeter.
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