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Old 27th August 2012, 07:29 PM   #1641
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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What we need now is someone explaining to the big masses why the tweeters are not at the ear hight aimed at the listener
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Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker 3 Speaker Linear Stereo Matrix Wavelets
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Old 27th August 2012, 08:40 PM   #1642
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
What we need now is someone explaining to the big masses why the tweeters are not at the ear hight aimed at the listener
oh yeah, good question!

is there any Snell's literature on "Type 1" out there?
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Old 27th August 2012, 10:18 PM   #1643
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so 2-3 meters? in a typical listening room? are You sure? which frequency band? what is the directivity of loudspeakers used for those test?
I would have ot pull out my RT figures for my room and run the calcs again, but that was my recollection from the last time and also what others have commented on. Your curves with an 8 meter critical distance would be for a large hall, of course.

I have also done draw away response curves from a system in two rooms at PSB. Each curve was divided by the half meter response so it simply showed the response change due to varying room RT and speaker directivity (typical 2-way and typical 3-way tested). By 3 meters the reverberent field (probably direct plus reverberent) had only shelved down by 2dB.

Again, its kind of academic when the ear is so good at pulling out the direct sound.

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Old 28th August 2012, 05:57 PM   #1644
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by speaker dave View Post
Again, its kind of academic when the ear is so good at pulling out the direct sound.

David S
I find the whole concept of two channel stereo triangle as an academic excercise since it doesn't work very well in practise

By the way, it's very easy to demonstrate the perceptual weakness of direct sound as it can be overruled by few early reflections arriving several ms later. Looks like Haas effect or the law of the first wavefront should be updated


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Old 28th August 2012, 06:30 PM   #1645
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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I wonder how Snell had explained unusual design of "Type 1" and why the concept as such had been discontinued (apart from "Type 1" not being a big seller)?

Last edited by graaf; 28th August 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 28th August 2012, 09:30 PM   #1646
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
I find the whole concept of two channel stereo triangle as an academic excercise since it doesn't work very well in practise
Works great at my house.
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Old 29th August 2012, 06:32 AM   #1647
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Works great at my house.
You like it, that's all

scientifically it's a failure based on oversimplificating 19th Century theories of hearing and some hit-and-miss experiments from the first half of 20th Century which (in seeming corroboration of those theories) produced some good enough (...to sell) results
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Old 29th August 2012, 07:34 AM   #1648
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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Stereo works OK in ideal circumstances but is something of a compromise. You only have to listen to a good binaural recording over headphones to realise what we're missing.

The BBC are currently conducting experiments in surround and their technical blog reported that four speakers were ideal for producing an immersive soundfield, with little improvement in directional cues if more speakers were used.

They've experimented with the Caldrec soundfield mic for many years.

I don't want to divert a valuable thread off-topic, so here are a couple of links which may be of interest:

BBC - The BBC Radio Blog: Whatever happened to surround sound for streaming Radio?

BBC - Radio 3 Blog: The Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols in surround sound
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Old 29th August 2012, 07:38 AM   #1649
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
I wonder how Snell had explained unusual design of "Type 1" and why the concept as such had been discontinued (apart from "Type 1" not being a big seller)?
I have found a 1981 review of "Type 1", I believe that reviewers had read the marketing literature
it looks like Snell arguments for such design were similar to my arguments for a flooder - complete elimination of the single one worst room problem - the floor reflection - although He argued in terms of frequency domain and tonality whereas I argue in terms of time domain and spatial sound reproduction in the first place
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Old 29th August 2012, 07:53 AM   #1650
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Stereo works OK in ideal circumstances but is something of a compromise. You only have to listen to a good binaural recording over headphones to realise what we're missing.
I believe that the main problem is not of a flawed recording technique but of a flawed reproduction technique
it is perfectly possible to raise the level of realism of reproduction of existing conventional stereo recordings with better - scientifically designed - loudspeakers setups

in other words - one only has to listen to a stereo dipole, for example, because apart from the floor reflection the big problem is stereo crosstalk - Linkwitz seems to understand this when He talks about "Optimizing the Phantom Source without XTC [that is "crosstalk cancellation"] & in a Room":
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/TMT-Leipz...l%20detail.pdf

interestingly, His proposition - the SEL setup ("stereo enhancement loudspeaker": WATSON-Stereo_Expansion_Loudspeakers ) - in his words: "not a CTC scheme, which requires cancellation, but (...) a left and right channel signal enhancement" is essentially quite similar in it's technical effects (increase of the level of the L signal on the left, and of the R signal on the right) to a flooder in Beveridge placement - the loudspeaker setup I have proposed here years ago

Last edited by graaf; 29th August 2012 at 07:56 AM.
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