The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers - Page 163 - diyAudio
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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 28th June 2012, 09:05 PM   #1621
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Hello George,

I hope you have time enough for this monster thread.
PIEZO NXT type panel

Oliver
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Old 29th June 2012, 06:09 AM   #1622
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Hi,

thanks for that reference.... it is huge... I jut started to read it but realised that I need more time.
However, I thought I should check that what I wrote about Shelley Katz's speakers was accurate so I sent him a copy. I then received an invite to visit him at his laboratory and he has also offered to send/lend me some of his speakers to use at home!
I am very keen to take up this offer, but it will nto be until mid/late August when we are back from holiday.
I have a choice of speakers to use with his.. Quad ESL57, Yamaha NS1000M, or JBL4343... I am not sure which to use at the moment. Any thoughts on this or the evaluation..... which I would write up for this and the other forum that you mentioned.?
George
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Old 29th June 2012, 06:41 AM   #1623
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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I find with DML speakers for layering it would be no problem if the main speakers were beamy (maybe even an advantage).
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Old 29th June 2012, 07:50 AM   #1624
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Hi,

this is kind of experiment that I am interested in. Personally I am nervous about giving up the precision of the sounds that I get from the Quads and Yamahas, but supplementing them with DML speakers may be the way to go.
If I am right that many recording techniques remove/ignore ambiance in favour of precision then adding some back (even if not the original, if it existed) is OK.
I am wondering what happens when the recording technique seeks to capture teh ambience and DML speakers are used as supplements to the beamy main speakers. Ambience on ambience?
George
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:45 AM   #1625
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Maybe it will cause too much ambience, but will still diminish the "bare nakedness" (Floyd Toole) of lobing between left and right channel.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:05 AM   #1626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgebrooke View Post
His solution is to combine traditional high quality speakers producing so-called coherent sound, together with his transverse wave panel speakers. These speakers (see Podium) are excited by a set of drivers so as to add the resonances (incoherent sounds) which are typical in a live environment but which are generally lost in the close-miking recording process.
[...]
This is an interesting proposal and might account for the popularity of some older speakers which bring their resonances and "character" into play and which at the same time enhance the listening experience.
While I find the considerations to be admirable, double-blind testing indicates people dislike speakers with resonances, since they introduce a colouration of their own. They accentuate certain aspects which are different from the original instruments.

However, adding repetition does indeed enhance the timbral character of recorded sounds. The correct solution would then be to better record music and include the reflections in the recording venue, which contain information about the resonances and dispersion patterns of the instruments. Have you ever seen the dispersion pattern of a violin at different frequencies?

Multichannel recordings are an excellent medium for this but are not really catching on unfortunately. Even stereo recordings are often not what they could be.
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Old 29th June 2012, 03:18 PM   #1627
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Hi,
I agree with your points in your comment above.
During his presentation Shelley actually talked about having, as an extreme example, one DML per instrument being reproduced. Thus there would be piano, violin, cello and so on speakers aimed at producing the typical resonances of each instrument.
It does seem that we are trying to cure problems introduced at the recording end of the process by fixing the end of the playback process. Assuming that we cannot fix the recording side it is probably still worthwhile to try this, especially as the costs to experiment in this area appear to be quite low.
I would be concerned if the resonances from the DML speaker became the overriding impression of the sound. It does need some control perhaps frequency or instrument dependent. The latter could be achieved, at a cost, by one speaker per instrument. The former could be achieved by common electrical methods.
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Old 30th June 2012, 04:18 PM   #1628
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speaker dave View Post
I think the hole in the middle is just the typical loss of the center image when path lengths aren't exact. There is also the question of how much well centered material the recording contains. Classical music with spaced mics might be weak in this area. There are a lot of early pop stereo recordings that use left center and right as the only image locations. They would make a good test (I'm listening to a "Best of Marvin Gaye" these days, which would suit.)

Klipsch was mostly following the recommendations from the Bell Labs experiments that he liked well enough to reprint and distribute. If you must put your speakers in opposite corners then adding a center can be helpful. Note that for a period of time he was advocating a center channel connection that used out-of-phase difference information, until that error was pointed out to him. Even the greats make mistakes.

David S.

Klipsch was an advocate of a Center Ch speaker to go with the Cornerhorns. Back in the sixties and seventies there were a number of preamps that had mono center ch outputs.
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Old 30th June 2012, 11:37 PM   #1629
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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Quote:
The latter could be achieved, at a cost, by one speaker per instrument.
limits your instrument count, and you would need a high degree of seperation between the instruments when recording, which implies highly directional mics, which dont record a very realistic sound.

Last edited by cbdb; 30th June 2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 2nd July 2012, 09:35 AM   #1630
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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The Podium speaker looks interesting

PodiumSound : Modèle .5

thanks for the tip-off.

I've not a great deal to contribute to this thread but on the subject of centre speakers, imaging and the room, Ted Jordan did some experiments in the 1970s with a centre speaker. It later led to the Stereola enclosure, a central speaker which used reflectors in the usual place of left and right speakers.

The article is a PDF download on his site - it's the one entitled

Loudspeaker stereo techniques Wireless World, February 1971

E.J.Jordan Designs - book & articles design & consultancy

I tried a basic version of it years ago and it seemed to work quite well. Two speakers back to back in the centre and a couple of formica-topped coffee tables as reflectors. (not exactly high tech).
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