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Old 22nd October 2011, 07:14 PM   #1591
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
yes indeed

the research Mr Jones refers to is the so-called "Archimedes" Eureka-funded research project: Project - EUREKA

it was joint project of Danmarks Tekniske Universitet, Bang & Olufsen and KEF

Bech is now Head of Research at Bang & Olufsen
on the part of Bang & Olufsen the follow-up to the project was the decision to licence the acoustic lens from Sausalito (of Moulton and LaCarruba) and to introduce their current line of horizontally omnidirectional Beolab speakers

what Jones says in this recent interview is the same what Moulton said in His 1999 interview for Recording Magazine: Moulton Laboratories :: Nick Batzdorf Interviews David Moulton
linked here many times

both gentlemen refer to the same "Archimedes" research project led by Bech, no wonder their conclusions are the same

Bech - praised here on diyaudio for His scientific publications - is in fact the man behind B&O-Moulton coooperation and Beolab line of omni speakers:
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/graphics...essrelease.pdf
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Old 22nd October 2011, 07:35 PM   #1592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
yes indeed

both gentlemen refer to the same "Archimedes" research project led by Bech, no wonder their conclusions are the same
Hmm, but there products are very different. the IRIS product that Jones designs for TAD has higher than normal directivity while Moulton aims for cylindrical omni.

Are they both following the teaching of Bech?

David S
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Old 22nd October 2011, 09:17 PM   #1593
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speaker dave View Post
Hmm, but there products are very different. the IRIS product that Jones designs for TAD has higher than normal directivity while Moulton aims for cylindrical omni.

Are they both following the teaching of Bech?

David S
Bech at B&O clearly follows His own teaching, Beolab speakers line is not Moulton's but Bech's, Bech is the Head of Research at B&O and the man behind Beolab line, not Moulton, Moulton's is just the lens

I can't say why Jones doesn't "follow teaching of Bech" in His commercial designs
perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact that His part was just "setting it up and formatting the experimental apparatus" and that all He has to say about it now in the interview, by way of conclusion, is that it just was "really interesting"

Last edited by graaf; 22nd October 2011 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 09:52 PM   #1594
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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ps.

but the real answer to the question is to be found at the marketing departments, an omni speaker just wouldn't work as KEF's or TAD's product, marketing-wise, because it doesn't fit the image of the company and expectations of it's target market, being too different from the competition

B&O is a different story, B&O customers rather expect the company to introduce highly original products, significantly different from the competition
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Old 23rd October 2011, 02:22 AM   #1595
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
Beolab line of omni speakers
Except of course, these are not "Omni Speakers", but controlled wide horizontal, narrow vertical dispersion speakers.

Ciao T
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Old 23rd October 2011, 02:31 AM   #1596
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
but the real answer to the question is to be found at the marketing departments, an omni speaker just wouldn't work as KEF's or TAD's product, marketing-wise
Well, Andrew Jones (who I agree knows a lot about speakers) in the previously referenced interview seems to disagree, he suggests an Omni is not a good idea for technical reasons:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Jones
Which gets us back to what are, truly, the important speaker characteristics. It confirmed a lot of beliefs that ceiling reflections are one of the worst. Sidewall reflections can be good, adding to a sense of spaciousness, if the stereo speaker possesses well-controlled directivity. This same sidewall phenomenon happens in concert halls, on a different scale. The tall, narrow, long concert halls -- traditional ones -- were always the best halls. Sidewall reflections are lower-correlation than ceiling or floor, so they add spaciousness. Correlated signals, by contrast, add coloration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
B&O is a different story, B&O customers rather expect the company to introduce highly original products, significantly different from the competition
You are right that B&O COULD make Omni's if it so choose (or even speakers following the Bose formula with 8/9 reflected sound or whatever).

However, isn't it telling that due to their co-operation with Sauselito Audio Works / Moulton they make in fact speakers that are quite controlled directivity and narrow directivity in the vertical plane?

Ciao T
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Old 23rd October 2011, 06:55 AM   #1597
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,

Except of course, these are not "Omni Speakers", but controlled wide horizontal, narrow vertical dispersion speakers.

Ciao T
yes, You are right of course, they just shoot 180 degrees horizontally so side wall reflections are as loud as the can be, it is just like omni in this particular respect

thanks for clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,
Well, Andrew Jones (who I agree knows a lot about speakers) in the previously referenced interview seems to disagree, he suggests an Omni is not a good idea for technical reasons:
yes, I think that they all - Jones, Bech, Moulton - agree that a real 720 degrees omni is not good
I agree too

I am sorry for ambiguous misuse of the word "omni"

it was a er... mental shortcut
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Old 23rd October 2011, 11:05 PM   #1598
DDF is offline DDF  Canada
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Originally Posted by Radugazon View Post
Impressive "mise en scène", but I think that this room is too small for starting with these speakers whatever could be the claims and benefits of the room treatment.

I think also that the happy owner would consider a PC based server as a source.
I can see this making some sense. When I used to design teleconference rooms, it was standard practice to use a hard ceiling to increase the direct/reverb ration for participants at the back of the room.

Increasing early reflection density with speaker listening would have a similar effect and allow more of the direct sound to dominate over the later reverb, in theory increasing intelligibility. Using early diffraction, there is less tonal distortion due to the early reflection.

IME FWIW, lack of early refection does sound deader, but imaging outside the speakers (when the recording expects it) is better.
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Old 24th October 2011, 12:25 AM   #1599
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Thinking of loudspeaker and room as a system made me remember these two rooms. Certainly a good blend of room and speaker.

In one, the wall is the horn woofer, in the other the ceiling is.
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Old 24th October 2011, 02:57 AM   #1600
DDF is offline DDF  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDF View Post
I can see this making some sense. When I used to design teleconference rooms, it was standard practice to use a hard ceiling to increase the direct/reverb ration for participants at the back of the room.

Increasing early reflection density with speaker listening would have a similar effect and allow more of the direct sound to dominate over the later reverb, in theory increasing intelligibility. Using early diffraction, there is less tonal distortion due to the early reflection.

IME FWIW, lack of early refection does sound deader, but imaging outside the speakers (when the recording expects it) is better.
The above was supposed to be in response to graafs post:
looks like this different way of treating a room (an example above) is actually inspired by Stig Carlsson's ortoacoustic theories
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