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Old 17th February 2011, 06:13 AM   #1511
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Default Reproduced realism

@Sheldon
Thanks, Sheldon. I guess we are beginning to see the problem now.
Broadly I think if we go for realism and take the example suggested by LineArray of ancient man's hearing mechanism having evolved along a path of practicality, we would accept that if the hunter doesnt want to be the hunted, his priority in listening would be imaging and accurate localization. If you were the type who bothered more about FR and other niceties, you'd perhaps earn a place as pre-history's first audiophile, but IT would have got you and you wouldnt be alive to tell the world about your superior audio experience.
I am no musician, but witnessing and live musical event with "emotional content", and listening to its reproduction over various chains, with some attention paid to 'musicality', would tell you what sound more 'real'--of course, to you. But surely there are factors that go beyond measurements. This is NOT to denigrate those devoted souls whose art and science of measurement has advanced the state of our hobby very much.
Perhaps it is time for us to shed our obsession with 'stereo' as we know it and move on to something else that would better mimic the real.

@Elias:
Yes, sir, something like that, But my setup is a feed of the M-S signals as such into the amp and then to a pair of stacked OBs at right angles, located comparatively free-field, a-la the M-S mic arrangement. (I am not very keen about matrixing L and R.) I think it is one the easiest experimental setups that every enthusiast should lash up and experience. Like I said earlier, you would agree it is something way beyond what you are accustomed to. The near-field experience is something that is pleasantly different, and I think more 'live', with less of the confusing smear.


@Syntheticwave:
Yes, I get you. I join you whole-heartedly in that wish/prayer that somebody should find a way to encode at least minimally what all we need to have in order to reproduce 'realism' with not much loss of flavour! It is, I think, a lot like MP3 encoding. If you know how much you can 'throw away' without affecting quality, that would give you a method for encoding the essentials of the sonic field.

@AllenB:
Sir, within my experience, vehicle environments and their EQ and reproduction are a totally different kettle of fish. It is entertainment, simple and good, sometimes great, but nobody is going to imgine that it is going to reproduce 'reality' in a grand manner.
Let us remember that every little step is good and that matters; but it surely is not the last. We need to take more steps forward before we could come to realize our dreams. The moment we think we have perfection with our two speakers and the 'sweet spot', that is likely to spell trouble. Let us be more bothered with the 'ends' than the 'means'--we want to experience 'realism', as real as it can get. Period.
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Old 17th February 2011, 06:18 AM   #1512
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Default Sound & Realism

With your permission I would point at least some of you to Chapter-2 of my blog posts at < Sound... unboxed ! >, in which I try and explain some of these concepts for our little group of youngsters, who sometimes lose sight of the aim of the 'war' in the heat of the 'skirmishes'!
Advance apologies for any disappointments!
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Old 17th February 2011, 06:49 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by syntheticwave View Post
[...] All we need is leave the worn- out traditional procedures.
You just need to join the 3DAA
3DAA Rethinks Surround | Home Theater
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Old 17th February 2011, 10:29 AM   #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
You just need to join the 3DAA
3DAA Rethinks Surround | Home Theater
That's a very interesting approach, abandoning the traditional ways. However, the system approach ends at the loudspeakers. Nevertheless,the most mistakes ar arising if the loudspeakers have done its work. We have to include the playback room properties into the system approach, thus.

The Holophony approach subtract the supplemental detours of the sound waves in playback room during synthesis, separately for the direct wave front and her reflections. Loudspeakers and room are really one system in that procedure.

H.
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Old 17th February 2011, 10:44 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by syntheticwave View Post
That's a very interesting approach, abandoning the traditional ways. However, the system approach ends at the loudspeakers. Nevertheless,the most mistakes ar arising if the loudspeakers have done its work. We have to include the playback room properties into the system approach, thus.
3DAA allows you to do just that. The idea is to separate sounds and their spatial information from rendering (playback). If you want your renderer to include aspects of the playback room then go ahead and build one.
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Old 17th February 2011, 12:09 PM   #1516
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hi,

To me it appears the same? M (=L+R) and S (=L-R) signals fed to two dipoles.

Click the image to open in full size.


- Elias


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
@Elias:
Yes, sir, something like that, But my setup is a feed of the M-S signals as such into the amp and then to a pair of stacked OBs at right angles, located comparatively free-field, a-la the M-S mic arrangement. (I am not very keen about matrixing L and R.) I think it is one the easiest experimental setups that every enthusiast should lash up and experience. Like I said earlier, you would agree it is something way beyond what you are accustomed to. The near-field experience is something that is pleasantly different, and I think more 'live', with less of the confusing smear.
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Liberate yourself from the illusion of two speaker stereo triangle
Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker 3 Speaker Linear Stereo Matrix Wavelets
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Old 17th February 2011, 12:10 PM   #1517
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Ambisonics has been doing the same since 70's. To separate the spatial sounds from the rendering.


- Elias


Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
You just need to join the 3DAA
3DAA Rethinks Surround | Home Theater
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:11 PM   #1518
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hello,

Also many things can be concluded by observing HRTF.

For example to emulate the spectral balance of a side or a rear sound source by a frontal real source one can put a notch at 3kHz (BBC dip !) and boost at 8kHz.
Click the image to open in full size.


http://homepage.mac.com/cooperbauck/...transaural.pdf


- Elias


Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Hello Elias,

maybe i did not make clear enough what i was talking
about when writing "presence to brillance region" ...

Presence region is often assumed starting at 2Khz and is
correlated with the curves of equal loudness:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ISO-KurvenANeu.gif


A presence filter used in studios has often significant
influence on frequencies even lower than 1Khz

http://www.elektroniktutor.de/analog...ct/filter5.gif


If we go up in frequency including the brillance range and
also including the directional band for 'above' localization
- which was the starting point for my thoughts on
balance between presence and 'sparkle' range -
we end up in a frequency range from 2Khz to 8Khz or
even larger i was talking about.

Kind Regards
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Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker 3 Speaker Linear Stereo Matrix Wavelets
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:34 PM   #1519
Sheldon is offline Sheldon  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
But surely there are factors that go beyond measurements.
When it comes to the physical aspects of sound production (or reproduction), the answer to that is no. Unless, that is, we want to invoke magic. Historically that hasn't held up too well to examination. Just because we don't know which measurements to take doesn't invalidate the principle.

When it comes to the perceiver, we're not as far along in measuring or generalizing aspects of perception. And there remains the issue of preference, or at least priorities.

And it's not just the sound field. How many live performances have you gone to where you can actually close your eyes and place the performers? None, that are amplified, I dare say, because they aren't produced that way. And in a concert hall? Good luck with "pinpoint" imaging. To replace the visual cues (yes our ancestors used those too) that come with the live experience you need a sort of hyper realism to create the same emotional reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
Perhaps it is time for us to shed our obsession with 'stereo' as we know it and move on to something else that would better mimic the real.
Something like this? Recombinant Media Labs at UCSD Roundup | barry threw

Sheldon
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Old 17th February 2011, 04:42 PM   #1520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
3DAA allows you to do just that. The idea is to separate sounds and their spatial information from rendering (playback). If you want your renderer to include aspects of the playback room then go ahead and build one.
3DAA is an object based procedure. That separates content ( the dry recorded, pure audio signals ) and form ( the information regarding the recording room properties ). During playback, the synthesis merge together both components, much more sophisticated as at all conventional approaches. The result is very close the genuine event, however the playback room acustics have to be supress for true perception. In other case the signal would shaped from two rooms, the recording room and the playback room.

However, living in an anechoic chamber may result in trouble with some unregenerate spouses. Much more clever seem, construct a common model from recording room and playback room, as in the Holophony procedure. By those object based procedure, a combination of the model based and data based approach allows, constitute an common approach. In the near field of an large WFS loudspeaker field behind the silver screen, the playback room acoustics become subordinated matter. Thus, the common model allow subtracting playback room acoustic. Is easily comprehensible in this little animation:

http://www.holophony.net/pictures/WF..._principle.swf

We are at the work to build that. I hold the patent for the procedure since more as five years. The result will be the physikal reconstruction of the spatial sonic field.


Regards H.

Last edited by syntheticwave; 17th February 2011 at 04:53 PM.
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