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Old 13th May 2008, 06:06 PM   #131
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Etienne88


Then if you read Briggs's book: Loudspeakers, at that time they recommended to have the medium and tweeter facing upward in order to achieve more spaciousness. The best tweeters of that time went up to 12kHz, maybe 15kHz... I wonder when LS started to have forward firing drivers???
interesting question

Quote:
Originally posted by Etienne88

I guess the delay caused by the distance between the 2 drivers will be audible. So that coaxial speaker would be a better choice. Just guessing, any thoughts?
the delay would be audible without slightest doubt
I was thinking of KEF Uni-Q drivers, about buying small minimonitor equipped with Uni-Q like Q-15, they are very cheap s/h

best,
graaf
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Old 13th May 2008, 06:17 PM   #132
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

The sites that you list have no real data only verbiage, and I don't pay much attention to verbiage in audio anymore. Talk is cheap.
(...)
I don't trust any statements in audio these days that are not supported with facts or measurements.
fortunately we have at least some believable data and independent measurements of the Jordans JX92s, those 4''
see: http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/out/oxb...JJ-1110858.pdf
are they very terrible? I don't know - just layman asking
certainly they are not CD but are they terrible?

"ganz sicher ein ausnahmelautsprecher" they wrote

Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

omni is a disaster in a small room with wall reflections (again unless these are below about 500 Hz.)
well, again, what do I know? certainly not much

but I wouldn't call what I hear "a disaster"
neither would Etienne88 I believe
in fact Etienne88 seems to think something quite the contrary, at least this is how I understand what he has written earlier in this thread
correct me if I am wrong

best,
graaf
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Old 13th May 2008, 06:40 PM   #133
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by graaf

are they very terrible? I don't know - just layman asking
certainly they are not CD but are they terrible?

Plotted on a 60 dB range. They are not very flat, very smooth or CD. I wouldn't use them.


Quote:
well, again, what do I know? certainly not much

but I wouldn't call what I hear "a disaster"
neither would Etienne88 I believe
in fact Etienne88 seems to think something quite the contrary, at least this is how I understand what he has written earlier in this thread
correct me if I am wrong
You are mixing subjective with objective here. I can't resolve your subject concerns, I can only talk about the "right" thing to do based on the data that we have. And as the guy who posted the other day about his opinions of my system I'd have to claim that the objective approach works pretty well.
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Old 13th May 2008, 07:10 PM   #134
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In hifi, it is hard to choose between subjective and all what it implies (you know, there should be place for all the tastes in nature...) and objective where measurements of different things are used without fully understanding all the principles behind...
For my part I am a hard believer in science, but I know as well that there is a long way left to go before science can explain everything!
So between subjective and objective, I choose both because they should meet at perfection.

What I really like with this set up is the fact that the sound is there, just there, not thrown in your face. But then Fostexes have the reputation of being a bit shouty... but not to my taste (I listened to them of axis when they were standing in a more "conventional" way, if it is of interest)
It all comes down to compromise at the end! I tried both solutions and they both have their advantages and drawbacks. Which advantages I value the most is subjective, isn't it?

I lifted up the LS so that the driver is at the same height as the armrest of the couches. So far it seems to be an improvement but I did not listen to that much music.

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Etienne
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Old 13th May 2008, 07:43 PM   #135
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
[B]

You are mixing subjective with objective here. I can't resolve your subject concerns, I can only talk about the "right" thing to do based on the data that we have.
I am not mixing anything I can assure You
I perfectly understand Your point of view and I agree with You

ok what data do You have?

have You measured such a setup as described in my first post in this thread or as in Etienne88's post?
"omni in a small room" can be different things

I accept that what one hears is irrelevant, the "brain-ear reference" is misleading us
but where can we find any measurements confirming that such a setup is a disaster, that is not "right"?

if You are saying "this is a disaster" then give us some data please

best,
graaf
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Old 13th May 2008, 07:50 PM   #136
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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No, the JX92s are not terrible. Or, at least, I don't think so. In fact, I rather like them. The JXR6 and other drivers measure better, go higher etc but within their limits, the JX92s have a superb-sounding mid and spacious imaging. I'd love to hear some of Earl's designs but it's impractical at this remove. I have heard louder, more dynamic designs than the Jordans but so far I've only heard the Quad ESLs that I would prefer to them.

Back to the thread ....
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Old 13th May 2008, 07:51 PM   #137
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by graaf

if You are saying "this is a disaster" then give us some data please

best,
graaf
I have given you the data, it has to do with VER, etc. Look at the impulse response of an omni speaker in a small room. There will be a multitude of VER under 10 ms. This is not "right" no matter what you find subjectively. To me this is a "disaster" (perhaps the word is a bit flowery in description, but clearly this approach is not what I am striving for.)
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Old 13th May 2008, 08:01 PM   #138
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Colin
I have heard louder, more dynamic designs than the Jordans but so far I've only heard the Quad ESLs that I would prefer to them.

I've always liked electrostats. The large diaphragms give a very high directivity - a good thing. But the lack of lows and power handling is a serious limitation that can be solved with waveguides. Not to mention their expense!
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Old 13th May 2008, 08:16 PM   #139
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

I have given you the data, it has to do with VER, etc. Look at the impulse response of an omni speaker in a small room. There will be a multitude of VER under 10 ms. This is not "right" no matter what you find subjectively.
I understand that VER are not right
I sincerely believe that You are right

but I ask about this specific omni setup that I have proposed
I am quite certain that no measuments of impulse response of such a setup were ever made, because I sort of just invented this setup myself
And I believe that this setup is very different from a typical "omni speaker in a small room"

can We calculate reflections' delay the way I did it in my first post using law of reflection?
or is anthing wrong with that?

I don't assume anything
I have no impulse response measurement of such a setup and I seriously believe that nobody has
therefore I calculate
perhaps oversimplifying
then tell me what is wrong please

best,
graaf
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Old 13th May 2008, 08:28 PM   #140
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It would seem to me you'd still have sound colouration above 1khz.
I think it best to reduce reflections between 10uS and 10mS.
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