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Old 8th April 2010, 12:19 PM   #1301
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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What? You are having some serious problems with yourself, seems to be.

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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Your rudness is becoming annoying and I am done talking with you.


"it sounds like an orchestra" If this is the level of your perception, then what else there is to say.

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And yes I have heard orchestras outdoors dozens of times. It still sounds like an orchestra.
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Old 8th April 2010, 12:27 PM   #1302
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Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
You are right that 5.1 or 7.1 or 10.2 cannot do it. But if you are good with a computer, you can use the WAVES Audio real measured concert hall impulse responses and a process call convolution to generate real concert hall reflections and reverberant tails
Ralph

has it ever been tried to use WAVES in a conventional 5.1 or 7.1 setup?

Best, Markus
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Old 8th April 2010, 03:05 PM   #1303
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
As well as I cant claim that all omnis work, just because I have managed to make one work
can You tell us please how exactly your multi-way omni-dipole setup looks alike?
It seems to be completely different from single driver closed box that I have built. I wonder what can be the operating principle common to them.

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graaf
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Old 8th April 2010, 03:37 PM   #1304
breez is offline breez  Finland
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Here is something relatively new for the discussion TKK Akustiikka / TKK Acoustics Laboratory / Research / Spatial sound / Directional audio coding

The idea is this. Spatial attributes of a recording are analyzed or synthesized from scratch. This data is then used to render the performance using arbitrary loudspeaker arrangement. A good candidate for a universal audio format for distribution and playback.

There are some demos for conventional 5.0 arrangement. I don't have a multi-channel set so can't comment.
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Old 8th April 2010, 04:06 PM   #1305
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So i assume the Denon anechoic recording posted above
would be interesting material to play around with ?

Kind Regards
No. I do have the Denon recording and it is a useful research tool. But to have a concert-hall sound at home one wants the stage ambience to come from the front speakers and the rear ambience not to. So an ideal two channel recording system uses a microphone that just picks up frontal sound, direct and indirect. This signal is then properly reproduced by the front speakers, preferably without crosstalk so that the directional properties of all the direct and reflective sounds are correctly delivered to the ears.

If only a frontal pair has been recorded then one can use a hall impulse response to generate signals for side, rear and ceiling ambience. Alternatively one can use a second stereo microphone just behind the frontal mic pair to record the rear half of the hall. It is important that this rear facing mic not be exposed to the front stage. The Panambiophone is designed to make 4.0 surround recordings this way. You can try some of these recordings by downloading them from the Ambiophonic.org website and see pictures of the Ambiophone.

I do have to tell you that there are no commercial Ambiophonic recordings available at this time. Chesky and others simply refuse to try this method. But despite the CD/LP lack of theoretical purity, most ordinary large ensemble 2.0 recordings sound fine played Ambiophonically since they are not anechoic.

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Old 8th April 2010, 04:21 PM   #1306
gedlee is online now gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
I also hate to keep repeating myself but anyway:

graaf
I reread that part of Toole and you are misquoting it and taking it out of context. The study that you refer to was done in an anechoic chamber and was not a real precise experiment so it is a poor choice as supporting evidence. That said, the results were also mixed with the trained listeners preferring high directivity and the novices preferrring the wider directivity. Toole then goes on to point out several researchers who found that high directivity was prefered.

You have picked the data that supports your position, but conveniently ignored that which did not.

As I have always said, this issue is controversial. But nowhere is anbody suggesting that a "ceiling flooder" is a good approach. The question is directional CD versus non-directional CD - no other option is even consider viable.
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Old 8th April 2010, 04:26 PM   #1307
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Ralph

has it ever been tried to use WAVES in a conventional 5.1 or 7.1 setup?

Best, Markus
Yes you can use WAVES IR halls to feed two or four surround speakers placed as in 5.1 or 7.1. But you should understand that there is nothing magical about the placement of the 5.1 or 7.1 angles. In general if you can only have four surround speakers then they are best placed at the sides toward the rear. This is because research on halls shows the best ones to have strong lateral reflections followed by rear, then ceiling and finally frontal.
That is humans prefer halls where the ambience is as uncorrelated as possible so this is true for the sides then the rear and finally the ceiling. Ceiling ambience is essentially mono and so is less interesting to the brain. But experiments show that humans like to have all three reverb fields coming to them.

If you make a comparison between the 7.1 signals from a DVD or home theater processor and the signals generated by WAVES, WAVES wins every time in my opinion and with WAVES you can add as many speakers as you like. Of course this does not apply to movie sound effects. For direct sound at the rear you want to use two speakers just behind the listening position and crosstalk cancel them. Then you have the full 180 wide rear sound stage that some movies actually have. If you crosstalk cancel the front pair you get 360 degrees and never need a center speaker. How to do all this for free is on the Ambiophonics website.

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Old 8th April 2010, 04:33 PM   #1308
gedlee is online now gedlee  United States
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IF symphonic music in a large hall were my pashion, then this would certainly be the manner in which I woiuld pursue that goal. I completely understand what is being done and technically it is the correct approach. I have the highest respect for Dr. Farina his work is exemplary.

Alas, this kind of thing is only ever going to have a small audience as society today is just not interested in the classic approach to music. It makes up an ever shrinking aspect of the market both for live as well as recorded music. I'm not going to side with whether this is right or wrong, only that it is a fact. But it is a fact that I personally cannot argue against.
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Old 8th April 2010, 04:56 PM   #1309
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IF symphonic music in a large hall were my pashion, then this would certainly be the manner in which I woiuld pursue that goal. I completely understand what is being done and technically it is the correct approach. I have the highest respect for Dr. Farina his work is exemplary.

Alas, this kind of thing is only ever going to have a small audience as society today is just not interested in the classic approach to music. It makes up an ever shrinking aspect of the market both for live as well as recorded music. I'm not going to side with whether this is right or wrong, only that it is a fact. But it is a fact that I personally cannot argue against.
You must understand that Ambiophonics also works for games, video, movies, rock concerts, new age, electronic music, etc. It also is great on laptops and PC speaker stuff. It is also possible that once one can have a true concert-hall experience in the home, classical music may make a comeback. But it has ever been thus. Only about 3% of the humans in any country like classical music. But this minority supports all the orchestras, all the opera houses, and all the composers. Not only are they wealthy, but influential enough to get government to help pay the bills. They also buy their share of the top end audiophile hardware.

Ralph Glasgal
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Old 8th April 2010, 05:05 PM   #1310
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I agree with Earl. A successful implementation needs to enable reproduction of as many auditory spaces as possible. It needs to maintain compatibility with common stereo (which I consider a cultural phenomenon like music for halls or music for churches) while enabling better spatial control by the recording itself.

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Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
Yes you can use WAVES IR halls to feed two or four surround speakers placed as in 5.1 or 7.1.
So it's probably just a problem with the recording industry that refuse to use the available tools and formats.

Best, Markus
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