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Old 7th April 2010, 09:01 PM   #1291
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
I like your idea that our monkey ancestors had no ceiling reflections, just tree reflections from the sides.
and later on from the floor - the ground

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graaf
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:04 PM   #1292
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
Dr Toole, for example, on the contrary, likes them a lot.
I hate to keep repeating myself, but I guess that I have to. Floyds comments in his book are not conclusive since the data could be interpreted different ways and he does this himself. And this is one area where I do not agree with Floyd.

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Moreover, blind tests show that VERs don't degrade stereo imaging in any way

graaf
And this is documented where?
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:13 PM   #1293
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What are You talking about? What graaf's statements?
Now you can't remember your own claims about "ceiling flodders"? That's bizarre.

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You have at least a couple of reports from different listeners in this thread testifying that contrary to what You expected the sound is not coming from the floor

And what exactly are You doing? What about high pass filtered channel? What is it supposed to represent?
I had the hope that you would not continue with this rather childish attitude after your easter break and we could have an objective discussion. Obviously I'm wrong. You're still acting rude, refuse to read basic texts and just quote texts that seem to support your claims. Reality is more complex than you'd think but you'll never find out because of the way you behave. If you don't change your attitude, this will be my last response to anything you say.
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:21 PM   #1294
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I hate to keep repeating myself, but I guess that I have to. Floyds comments in his book are not conclusive since the data could be interpreted different ways and he does this himself. And this is one area where I do not agree with Floyd.

And this is documented where?
I also hate to keep repeating myself but anyway:

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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
taken from Toole's book:

“[Flindell et.al. (1991)] (...) The natural concern that wide dispersion and the attendant strong early reflections “would lead to degraded stereo imaging was not confirmed by the experienced listeners using rating scales and blind presentations of audio material.”
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:28 PM   #1295
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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I had the hope that you would not continue with this rather childish attitude after your easter break and we could have an objective discussion. Obviously I'm wrong. You're still acting rude, refuse to read basic texts and just quote texts that seem to support your claims.
I quote?

those quotations from basic text were selected and posted by el'Ol, haven't You noticed?

I am especially happy with that because it cannot be said that this is my biased selection because it is not

and please - feel free to quote texts that seem to support your claims

it is free internet forum, haven't You noticed?

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If you don't change your attitude, this will be my last response to anything you say.
please stop personal arguments and just answer those simple questions :

What exactly are You doing?
What about high pass filtered channel? What is it supposed to represent?

best,
graaf
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:37 PM   #1296
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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The point about the orchestra outdoors was not that it was ideal or desirable only that the room IS NOT the major effect - the orchestra still sounded fine and some people even like the effect. The hall is not the dominate factor at all - its an additive accent that adds a quite pleasing effect.
I was listening to a live orchestra last night playing big music - Verdi, Wagner - and, not for the first time, was actually thinking about this very thing. . I was thinking, "How can I get this sound at home? What do they have here that I don't have?" The answer I came up with, as before, is the hall has, in addition to the direct sound from the instruments, great modal distribution, a gazillion point sources and most of them uncorrelated and not very loud. I can't have this at home unless I manufacture it. Plain vanilla stereo and dead front and live rear just doesn't cut it. I gotta have more speakers, processing and perhaps more channels.

Outdoor performance of orchestral music doesn't have the masking and colouration that a hall can can give the sound but ideal modal distribution, and a myriad of uncorrelated point sources are still there. I think my requirements for reproducing a recorded outdoor performance would be the same as for a recording made indoors.
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Old 7th April 2010, 11:20 PM   #1297
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by FrankWW View Post
I was listening to a live orchestra last night playing big music - Verdi, Wagner - and, not for the first time, was actually thinking about this very thing. . I was thinking, "How can I get this sound at home? What do they have here that I don't have?" The answer I came up with, as before, is the hall has, in addition to the direct sound from the instruments, great modal distribution, a gazillion point sources and most of them uncorrelated and not very loud. I can't have this at home unless I manufacture it. Plain vanilla stereo and dead front and live rear just doesn't cut it. I gotta have more speakers, processing and perhaps more channels.

Outdoor performance of orchestral music doesn't have the masking and colouration that a hall can can give the sound but ideal modal distribution, and a myriad of uncorrelated point sources are still there. I think my requirements for reproducing a recorded outdoor performance would be the same as for a recording made indoors.
I agree with all that you say. The single most difficult situation to create in a small room it that it sound convincingly like a big room. Its not likely to ever happen to the extent that some people are hoping for even with surround. You just cannot fool the brain that much.

I've never been that big a fan of symphonic music, but even less so of recorded symphonic music. It is just never convincing. But virtually all other forms of recorded music can be very convincing in the "they are here" scenario. Thankfully thats what I prefer, because if symphonic recordings were my pashion, I'm afraid that I would forever be disappointed.

And thats not to say that live symphonic music is nirvana. I saw The Messiah at X-mas, and it was pretty bad. When I closed my eyes, there was no "image" just a blur, and what imaging there was, was at the side wall where a major reflection was pulling the image over there. All-in-all a disappointing experience - sonically. I loved the performance however.
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Old 8th April 2010, 04:48 AM   #1298
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The single most difficult situation to create in a small room it that it sound convincingly like a big room. Its not likely to ever happen to the extent that some people are hoping for even with surround. You just cannot fool the brain that much.
You definitely can make a small room sound like a concert hall. My first article on this subject in Stereophile was called the Domestic Concert Hall.
You are right that 5.1 or 7.1 or 10.2 cannot do it. But if you are good with a computer, you can use the WAVES Audio real measured concert hall impulse responses and a process call convolution to generate real concert hall reflections and reverberant tails There are some hundred odd of the world's best halls to choose from.

You can see how to do this at Home Page if you click on the PC/MAC tab and go down to toward the bottom. If you look at the picture on the left of the home page you can see some of the big black panels used to mimic concert hall walls. With one computer I have generated signals for 14 surround speakers and actually have 30 goiing. Overkill of course, but these surround speakers completely swamp the room acoustics and you can have a real "You Are There" experience. The short home listening room reflections are just like the reflections you get in a concert hall from the seats and heads nearby and really are inaudible in this case. Of course, this process is not perfect but it is the best ever devised for the creation of an opera house, church, jazz band, or concert hall experience in the home. It is even possible to create halls better than any that could be built, but one is in danger of spending a lifetime tweaking halls.

There is also a paper by Angelo Farina, University of Parma, who was a WAVES consultant, of how the WAVES concert halls were measured, etc. Of course if all you listen to is a solo voice with a guitar or small combo this is not for you.

Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophnics.org
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Old 8th April 2010, 07:53 AM   #1299
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I saw The Messiah at X-mas, and it was pretty bad. When I closed my eyes, there was no "image" just a blur, and what imaging there was, was at the side wall where a major reflection was pulling the image over there. All-in-all a disappointing experience - sonically. I loved the performance however.
You mean a real event?
I don't know if you are interested in a second messiah at home, but if so, I would recommend this:
Amazon.com: Handel: Messiah: David Evan Thomas, David Thomas, George Frederick Handel, Masaaki Suzuki, Bach Collegium Japan Orchestra, Midori Suzuki, John Elwes: Music
The BIS records quite puristic, and in this case in an especially reverberant space.
I don't have this particular recording, but my experience is that many BIS recordings sound very good with narrow beam speakers (Spendor BC1, large fullrange drivers).
And the Bach Collegium Japan is really good.

Last edited by el`Ol; 8th April 2010 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 8th April 2010, 09:29 AM   #1300
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Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
...
But if you are good with a computer, you can use the WAVES Audio real measured concert hall impulse responses and a process call convolution to generate real concert hall reflections and reverberant tails There are some hundred odd of the world's best halls to choose from.
...

So i assume the Denon anechoic recording posted above
would be interesting material to play around with ?

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