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Old 7th April 2010, 07:28 PM   #1281
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
Thats not (principly) a "reproduction" system in the sense of playback of a recording. Its (principly) a reinforcment system for an original performances. That makes a world of difference and takes it away from any discussions here. If the artist likes it "then it is good".
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Old 7th April 2010, 07:45 PM   #1282
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
6dB@2000Hz is OK.
Click the image to open in full size.

1.5kHz?
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Old 7th April 2010, 07:49 PM   #1283
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Depends a bit on whether you measure from the top of the bump or from the linear range.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:17 PM   #1284
Sheldon is offline Sheldon  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Thats not (principly) a "reproduction" system in the sense of playback of a recording. Its (principly) a reinforcment system for an original performances. That makes a world of difference and takes it away from any discussions here. If the artist likes it "then it is good".
It's essentially an anechoic environment (i've been in it, and it has no discernible echo). But it has all the elements to selectively add reverberations, and create a specific acoustic "space". One might be able to more objectively evaluate the effect of different kinds of reflections by synthetically generated reverberation, with control over direction and amplitude. Woulda thought that someone data driven, might like to play there. Could help define perception issues.

Sheldon
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:22 PM   #1285
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
And you haven't heard what Marcus and I are talking about either, so that makes it a stalmate on the subjective aspects and all we can do is to talk about the objective ones. There I don't think that there is much of a contest.
Are You suggesting that there is something objectively wrong with the flooder?

The truth is that there is nothing, objectively.

It is only that You subjectively don't like any kind of VERs.
Dr Toole, for example, on the contrary, likes them a lot.
Moreover, You say they are not right thing, He says they are highly desirable. You say that spaciousness they create is an artificial effect (at best, otherwise You say that they degrade imaging), He says that reproduction without them is unrealistic and makes stereo crosstalk audible problems worse.

Most of the listeners tested prefer listening to stereo with VERs. Also professionals. About half of the latter even declare that they can produce music with them.
More subjective unscientific reports on gearslutz (some of them quoted above in this thread)

Moreover, blind tests show that VERs don't degrade stereo imaging in any way, contrary to popular belief and contrary to what You say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
You can increase the spaciousness with wide directivity speakers and/or many more early reflections, but this accentuate the problems with small rooms, most noticably the imaging. If you want good imaging and good spaciuosness simultaneously then you have to use a speaker/room combination that surpresses the very early reflection
??
what about that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
(...) taken from Toole's book:
(...)
“[Flindell et.al. (1991)] (...)
The natural concern that wide dispersion and the attendant strong early reflections “would lead to degraded stereo imaging was not confirmed by the experienced listeners using rating scales and blind presentations of audio material.”
best,
graaf
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:23 PM   #1286
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Did the same test as in #1272 but this time with 6dB HP/LP @ 1.5kHz, high pass filtered channel is delayed by 4ms and 8ms (to simulate the longer path of the ceiling reflection):

Certainty of localization is reduced. Most sound is localized in the direction of the low pass filtered speaker (regardless if it's the bottom or top loudspeaker). Both observations contradict graaf's statements.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:28 PM   #1287
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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->el`Ol

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post

Tell me please - is there anything in this book that speaks against the flooder idea?
Any statement from Toole that supports all those statements that have been posted here in this thread, about disasters and crazy schemes?

anything at all?

best regards!
graaf
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:33 PM   #1288
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Did the same test as in #1272 but this time with 6dB HP/LP @ 1.5kHz, high pass filtered channel is delayed by 4ms and 8ms (to simulate the longer path of the ceiling reflection):

Certainty of localization is reduced. Most sound is localized in the direction of the low pass filtered speaker (regardless if it's the bottom or top loudspeaker). Both observations contradict graaf's statements.
What are You talking about? What graaf's statements?

You have at least a couple of reports from different listeners in this thread testifying that contrary to what You expected the sound is not coming from the floor

And what exactly are You doing? What about high pass filtered channel? What is it supposed to represent?
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Last edited by graaf; 7th April 2010 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:42 PM   #1289
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Graaf, I haven't read more of the book, yet, but after reading the explanations of the precedence effect it was clear to me that such strange things as the flooder can work. Can, but of course not everything strange works. I like your idea that our monkey ancestors had no ceiling reflections, just tree reflections from the sides.
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Old 7th April 2010, 09:00 PM   #1290
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
It's essentially an anechoic environment (i've been in it, and it has no discernible echo). But it has all the elements to selectively add reverberations, and create a specific acoustic "space". One might be able to more objectively evaluate the effect of different kinds of reflections by synthetically generated reverberation, with control over direction and amplitude. Woulda thought that someone data driven, might like to play there. Could help define perception issues.

Sheldon
As a research tool it would be ideal, but who can afford to do research?

Beyond that its a tool of the artist and, as I said, whatever the artist wants to do to create their art is fine with me. I just want to make sure that what they do is what I hear when I play it back - nothing more, nothing less.
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