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Old 7th April 2010, 04:06 PM   #1271
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
The symphonic situation will not be improved by any recording or loudspeaker directivity issue. It's because the main thing in symphonic (or chamber music) is the sense of the hall! The envelopement. That is not possible with any 2 speaker set up, but one needs extra speakers to create the "surround field".

The wide dispersion speakers help to overcome this fact. BUT in my opinion the diepersion should be wide only at high frequencies above 1kHz or so. Below 1kHz directivity should be as narrow as possible to overcome the room.
Well I completely disagree with that, but I know that. I could never agree that "the main thing" is the hall, as if the playing and the direct field were insignificant. That is, IMO, ridiculous. The hall "adds" to the performance, but it is NOT the performance.

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And you are not?
No not really. Floyd had bosses, I do not. Floyd came to work at JBL and the products already existed, he did not design them. I did the designs for my speakers long before I was ever a manufacturer. Hence, my speakers reflect my beliefs not the other way arround. It's a vastly different situation. And, for what its worth, selling loudspeakers has virtually no impact on my income - it is mostly derived from other "profitable" sources.

Last edited by gedlee; 7th April 2010 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 7th April 2010, 04:16 PM   #1272
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Did a little test: Mono sum of music stereo track, split to left and right channel, high pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on left channel, low pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on right channel.

When listening with the head turned 90, so one speaker acts as a floor speaker and the other one as a ceiling speaker, all sounds are localized in the high pass filtered speaker, even when that speaker is delayed (tested delays up to 10ms).

Second observation: timbre was not affected.

This gives hints why the sound of a ceiling flodder is neither necessarily colorized nor localized at the floor. But then again, why not just use regular loudspeakers?

To gain a better understanding, the test should be repeated with the two channels filtered in a way that matches the response characteristics of a typical ceiling flodder. Who could provide that information?

Best, Markus
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Old 7th April 2010, 04:38 PM   #1273
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Have you ever listened symphony orchestra playing in anechoich space? Otherwise you don't know what you are talking about.

There is no performance without the hall.

Denon made an anechoich symphonic recording:
Anechoic Orchestral Music Recording

WAV files:
Index of /Public/Anecoic/Denon


Listen to that first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Well I completely disagree with that, but I know that. I could never agree that "the main thing" is the hall, as if the playing and the direct field were insignificant. That is, IMO, ridiculous. The hall "adds" to the performance, but it is NOT the performance.
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Old 7th April 2010, 06:28 PM   #1274
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Did a little test: Mono sum of music stereo track, split to left and right channel, high pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on left channel, low pass filter (12dB@500Hz) on right channel.

When listening with the head turned 90, so one speaker acts as a floor speaker and the other one as a ceiling speaker, all sounds are localized in the high pass filtered speaker, even when that speaker is delayed (tested delays up to 10ms).
Is this true only for having the highpassed speaker above and the lowpassed speaker below? And what is the crossover frequency where the situation changes?
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Old 7th April 2010, 06:38 PM   #1275
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Have you ever listened symphony orchestra playing in anechoich space? Otherwise you don't know what you are talking about.
Your rudness is becoming annoying and I am done talking with you.

And yes I have heard orchestras outdoors dozens of times. It still sounds like an orchestra.
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Old 7th April 2010, 07:38 PM   #1276
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Is this true only for having the highpassed speaker above and the lowpassed speaker below?
No, it just depends on where the high pass filtered speaker is placed.

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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
And what is the crossover frequency where the situation changes?
Would have to test specifically for that. At this point I'm more interested in real world data. Is 6dB@1000Hz realistic for a full range driver, e.g. Visaton B200?
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Old 7th April 2010, 07:40 PM   #1277
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Dr. Geddes, if I have read the thread carefully enough you still haven't said how and where you would record symphonic music for ideal playback with a narrow-beam stereo setup. I have heard a full-scale orchestra outdoors only once, but I think I can say it doesn't sound like a recording in a "hifi concert hall" on narrow beam speakers.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:09 PM   #1278
Sheldon is offline Sheldon  United States
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You folks could have some fun here:

UCSD's Conrad Prebys Music Center chooses Meyer Sound Constellation

Sheldon
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:12 PM   #1279
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Would have to test specifically for that. At this point I'm more interested in real world data. Is 6dB@1000Hz realistic for a full range driver, e.g. Visaton B200?
6dB@2000Hz is OK.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:25 PM   #1280
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Dr. Geddes, if I have read the thread carefully enough you still haven't said how and where you would record symphonic music for ideal playback with a narrow-beam stereo setup. I have heard a full-scale orchestra outdoors only once, but I think I can say it doesn't sound like a recording in a "hifi concert hall" on narrow beam speakers.
I am not a recording engineer and wouldn't pretend to know how to record an orchestra. The reasons for a narrow beam playback would be true no matter what the recording is or how it was recorded. Its simply that if one wants to remove the negative effects of a small room without elliminating the local spacial ambiance then the only choice is narrow directivity. You can increase the spaciousness with wide directivity speakers and/or many more early reflections, but this accentuate the problems with small rooms, most noticably the imaging. If you want good imaging and good spaciuosness simultaneously then you have to use a speaker/room combination that surpresses the very early reflection while accentuating the later ones. I know of only one way to do this.

The point about the orchestra outdoors was not that it was ideal or desirable only that the room IS NOT the major effect - the orchestra still sounded fine and some people even like the effect. The hall is not the dominate factor at all - its an additive accent that adds a quite pleasing effect.
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