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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 4th April 2010, 08:53 AM   #1241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
...
“ Ando et.al. (2000) found that musicians judge reflections to be about seven times greater than ordinary listeners, meaning that they derive a satisfying amount of spaceousness from reflections at a much lower sound level than ordinary folk: “Musicians prefer weaker amplitudes than listeners do.”
Might this simply be because musicians are accustomed to the sound of their instruments at much closer range than the audience? In other words, the sound balance they consider "correct" contains much more direct sound and less reflected sound.
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Old 4th April 2010, 09:24 AM   #1242
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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A quote from Toole about room treatment:

“…the development of porous absorbers in the 1930s led to a popular belief that acoustical room treatment begins with a large stack of fiberglass. In the author’s opinion this approach has some value and should be applied to the interior of many popular restaurants within which conversation is all but impossible, especially for those with deteriorating hearing. However, for normal listening and listening spaces, time has shown that a certain amount of reflected sound is not only welcome but expected.”

And one that gets very close to our thread:

…a pair of loudspeakers deployed at +/-30° or less is not an optimum arrangement for generating strong perceptions of envelopment… Perhaps this is why audiophiles have for decades experimented with different loudspeaker directivities (to excite more listening room reflections), with electronic add-ons and more loudspeakers (to generate delayed sounds arriving from the sides and rear), and with other trinkets that seem capable only of exciting the imagination. All have been intended to contribute more of “something that was missing” from stereo reproduction experience. The solution to this is more channels.”

I want to learn more about multi-speaker solutions and hence opened a thread about it:
Who listens surround from stereo source?
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Old 4th April 2010, 10:31 AM   #1243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Might this simply be because musicians are accustomed to the sound of their instruments at much closer range than the audience? In other words, the sound balance they consider "correct" contains much more direct sound and less reflected sound.
For most instruments this seems a very good and simple explanation.

When asking musicians for judging between different reproduction
setups i often noticed them beeing focused on completely different
aspects of a recording than common listeners and giving such questions
like "spaciousness" or "may it be a little more presence there or
brilliance here" not the weight like e.g. "audiophiles" do it.

Holistic impression, interpretation due to timing and dynamics,
emotional content, things like that seem to be most important
for musicians.

Many of them do not really care if listening to a highly directional
speaker or a speaker having wide dispersion. A recording with an
interesting interpretation may even have lousy quality, it will not
loose its worth for a professional musician i fear.

A musician playing an acoustic instrument has to adapt to very
very different situations and must be able to perform even
under sub optimal conditions, thereby cancelling out everything
which distracts him or her from contributing is part of the whole.
A professional musician is professional even in that respect to
a c c e p t acoustical working conditions he cannot change.
There is no other way for him. "Dear Audience, the acoustics in
here is so lousy, that we will cancel the concert ..." is surely
the last thing to do, although such things may have happened.

It is the ability to listen very selectively and change the focus
immediately, which can make a professional musician a very
different listener than the common one or even a sound engineer.
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www.dipol-audio.de

Last edited by LineArray; 4th April 2010 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 4th April 2010, 03:35 PM   #1244
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Holistic impression, interpretation due to timing and dynamics,
emotional content, things like that seem to be most important
for musicians.
I have tried to understand some of my CDs that way. As a spatial realism fanatic I have to concentrate on not looking at this aspect, but when I do it, it works - for some. Others I still see just as "radio ready".
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:04 PM   #1245
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
“Using only professional sound engineers as listeners, they found that narrow-dispersion loudspeakers were required for good reproduction of voices in radio dramas; dance and popular music was also desirably “aggressive” with “highly directed” loudspeakers. The majority of the same listeners, however, preferred wide-dispersion loudspeakers for the reproduction of symphonic music at home. ”
To me this is a key finding and one I completely concur with. It is key to my disagreements with Floyd on the subject of directivity. The wide directivity will mask to a much greater degeree the poor recordings that I find so common in marketplace. The highly directional speakers are brutally revealing of these flaws. Floyd is dominately a "symphonic music at home" person. I am quite the opposite. I claim that if the recordings of symponic music were improved, then the prference would shift to narrow directivity.

Quote:
This is a caution to all of us who work in the field of audio and acoustics. Our preferences may reflect accumulated biases and therefore may not be the same as those of our customers.”
And the results of Floyd and his lab at JBL were strongly influenced by the need to sell products, to cater to the market, rather than change it. Don't get me wrong, 95% of what Floyd says, I agree with, but these quotes make it easy to see how someone could rationally argue against his position on directivity - as I do.
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:26 PM   #1246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I claim that if the recordings of symponic music were improved, then the prference would shift to narrow directivity.
Problem is that it can't be improved with 2 channel playback. That's why classic concert hall reproduction people start fiddling around with concepts like omnis or dipoles. The main drawback is that they make each and every recording sound the same even when these recordings were never intended for that kind of reproduction.

The solution of the problem is pretty simple. Let the recording control it's reproduction. That's exactly why multichannel was "invented". Music industry just needs to start making use of it. One of the few that do: AIX Records - Audio Fidelity Beyond Reality
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:39 PM   #1247
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Markus

Quite true about the making everything sound the same. The proposals here will definately do that.

Thanks for the link as well I'll try some of those.

I've not gotten into multi-channel because of the limited availability of mainstream material, but maybe that will change. But it is taking an awfully long time and may never happen.
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:47 PM   #1248
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I claim that if the recordings of symponic music were improved, then the prference would shift to narrow directivity.
Then how should symphonic music be recorded?
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:49 PM   #1249
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Multichannel!
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Old 4th April 2010, 04:55 PM   #1250
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Decca tree?
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