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Old 31st March 2010, 09:31 PM   #1201
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
Those wouldn't happen to belong to a tall guy in Paris, would they? I built a Hiraga 20W for a buddy who has a pair.
Sorry no, cant say I have been in Paris
No, a local guy, and Hiragas were mine
Maybe 30years ago

Heard a pair of tall slim Audiostatic once, ok sound
And the BIG Magnepan, I think it was
HUGE impressive sound
Never could afford that expencive stuff, still cant

But thats also DIY I guess, make the cheaper stuff sound better than the rest
But my reference is ok I think
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Old 31st March 2010, 09:32 PM   #1202
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Not true for the ENTIRE audio industry

two exceptions not ignoring the sound field:

HTML Code:
www.ambisonic.net
HTML Code:
www.ambiophonics.org

Quote:
Originally Posted by Key View Post
Basically what I am saying is that it's not my fault that the ENTIRE audio industry is ignoring the sound field.
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Old 31st March 2010, 09:39 PM   #1203
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Well, I doubt the industry holds back much secrets, on the contrary, they are looking what secrets we may reveal here
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Old 31st March 2010, 09:51 PM   #1204
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Did someone else try Key's files?
Yes I did. Talking about Pharsyde only. What I heard was definitely not my TASTE of music, but that is not the topic, I believe.
Seriously, some effects worked for me 180 - easily. I could not find any distortion within the frontal 90, but the outer edges (+/- 90) were sort of diffuse or "spacy".

Some observations:
I think that I got somewhat preconditioned by that repeating "wocawocawocawoca" sound from 90 left and right. When only starting into the last 20 seconds of the track the 180 were less convincing than when listening from the first second.

Retreating into the far field actually enhanced the effect in my room. It became ever more convincing. Extreme near field made the effect vanish.

My speakers are no perfect match and the symmetry of the room isn`t perfect too. So I don't consider the 'match' argument a valid one.

I get the same 180 when listening to "Weightless" from the 1997 album "Andromeda Heights" by Prefab Sprout. Key's samples certainly are of better sound quality at extreme angles than PS, but voices for example refuse to wander as far off axis as that diffuse "woca" does.

I forced my son to listen into Pharsyde too. He heard that "woca" at +/- 90 too, but found almost everything else confined to 90 in front of him. Could it be that these effects are only half physics and half "acoustic brainwash"?

Rudolf
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Old 31st March 2010, 10:04 PM   #1205
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Maybe these demos

Code:
www.ambisonia.com
for those who have 5.1


- Elias
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Old 31st March 2010, 10:10 PM   #1206
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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This would speak for the cross-talk cancelling used, no?

- Elias

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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Retreating into the far field actually enhanced the effect in my room. It became ever more convincing. Extreme near field made the effect vanish.
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Old 1st April 2010, 05:56 AM   #1207
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
If you use the ceiling as the first reflection with a fllor that is heavily carpeted and hence quite absorbent this may work t a reasonable degree
yes, this is my case

Quote:
I can see issues with tonal balance though.
yes, some frequency equalization may be necessary

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If this implemented with drivers having a frequency response that is boosted at high frequencies and narrows at frequencies it may kind of work.
yes, this is exactly the case of the flooders

Quote:
Where I tried the Carllson Sonab's the floor and ceiling where acoustically highly reflective. As is the case with my current living room.

I rather doubt that under those kind of conditions you would like your flooders
yes indeed in a bare room without sufficient amount of absorbtive elements like carpets, curtains and upholstered furniture the reverb is really unbearable
but it is not a question of early reflections that allegedly destroy imaging/soundstaging but of late reverberation

best,
graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 1st April 2010 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 1st April 2010, 06:19 AM   #1208
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
Please remember Im not "advocating" omnis, or anything else for that matter
neither am I

all that I am advocating is freedom of TIY - "Try It Yourself"

I am openly against discouraging people from TIY just because the books say it can't work

this is all I am saying - don't listen to the naysayers! just try it yourself!
take Your chance - it is worth it because it is possible that You are going to like it a lot

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
All I know, it CAN be made to work
I dont know yet which design parameters to rely on
I could fear its having the drivers placed on the floor, and being dipole
Pretty strange
And I perfectly understand why noone believes that
Im surpriced too
yes indeed

and I also perfectly understand reaction of disbelief but I don't understand raction of fanatically discouraging other people from trying it themselves

and I oppose strongly against such destructive attitude, totally alien to the very idea of DIY

best regards,
graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 1st April 2010 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 1st April 2010, 07:00 AM   #1209
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Quad and Beveridge as well are very directional speakers
are You sure?
I always thought that Harold Beveridge intentionally designed His speaker to have uniform 180 horizontal dispersion
white_paper

as to Peter Walker's FRED with concentric delay lines it was intentionally designed to simulate point source as much as possible with panel ESL speaker and in such a way to overcome very directional problems of earlier simple panel ESL-57

some directivity remains but it is closer to dipole of a Linkwitz Orion kind and it doesn't meet requirements of Dr Geddes:
Quote:
Index (DI) should be above 9 dB above about 500 Hz
so FRED is better than the Orions in that regard but not good enough from perspective of theoretical requirements of sufficiently high and constant directivity above 500 Hz

In the light of the foregoing can we really say that Quads are very directional?

best regards,
graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 1st April 2010 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 1st April 2010, 08:05 AM   #1210
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
In the light of the foregoing can we really say that Quads are very directional?

best regards,
graaf
So we should leave the "very", no problem with that.
Quad and Beveridge as well are speakers with directivity changing
only smoothly with frequency.

The directivity is much higher than in common multiway designs, which
may serve as a reference to the common listener especially below
say 1Khz.

The Beveridge is a line source which has very narrow vertical dispersion.

Neither Beveridge has 180 degrees horizontal dispersion nor is the
Quad a virtual point source. Those are instructive design goals proposed
by the designers and the quality of the speakers comes also from
the fact that these design goals have not been achieved as
proposed in their entirety.

I am pretty shure the designers themselves know that at best ...

An instructively presented working principle of a speaker which
is posted to the public is something different than real technical
design goals IMO.

We listen to the real loudspeakers, not to the proposed goals of
the designer or a companies marketing department.
Luckily this is a fact which holds for every loudspeaker and
in that sense "all loudspeakers are created equal"

Best
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