The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers - Page 118 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 31st March 2010, 06:19 PM   #1171
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
in this very old review of Ohm speakers in Stereophile I have found observations that can shed some light on why omni speakers are considered by many audiophiles as having poor imaging:

see: Stereophile: Ohm Walsh 5 loudspeaker

it seems that omni speakers are not tolerant of typical audiophile listening room acoustics that is rather on the dead side
Funny, when not placed in "acoustically dead rooms" I would completely agree with Stereophiles (or rather the writers) assessment. I would probably weight the emphasis differently, but he clearly heard what I heard with similar "omni's":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereophile
The dimensions of the soundstage stretched clear out to the sidewalls with excellent depth.
Read the Soundscape was confined to within the room and the walls where clearly audible - or what I call the "they are here" effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereophile
The diffuseness of individual spaces within the soundstage increased somewhat, but each space took on a convincing 3-D quality.
Read - everything was diffusely spacious (due to a lot of in room reverb and a very long RT60) - but without being able to clearly focus on individual instruments in the soundscape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereophile
The focus within the soundstage was not ultra-tight, being more typical in extent of what you might experience from the back of the concert hall.
Yes, read "back of hall perspective - plenty of long delayed reverb, much more reverb than direct sound, you can tell the Violins are on the left - sometimes.

I know that these are the expensive seats, just as well to as being in audio does not make you rich... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereophile
It might be more accurate to say that the whole end of the room appeared to come alive;
Yes, classical "omni" presentation. The room is filled with sound, it is pleasantly spacious but it is INSIDE THE ROOM and it has non of the spacial and directional characteristics of the original recording.

Honestly, having heard on more occasions than I care to admit, the Bose 901 does this job EVEN BETTER than supposed "True Omni's". They produce even more diffuse, spacious, reverby sounds than Omni's. If you don't believe me, try it!

Honestly, it is quite trivial to attain such a soundscape presentation. It was all done in the 60's and 70's. No real improvements in that department since. The Grundig Audiorama and Bose 901 had it all well sorted by then...

BTW, for those who do not remember the Audiorama's:

Click the image to open in full size.

Well, at least now we REALLY know why Logan was running. He was running away from ill focused, diffuse and boring Omni Sound... :-P

Ciao T

Last edited by ThorstenL; 31st March 2010 at 06:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 06:30 PM   #1172
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I'm not sure if this is a feasible test because the setup is essentially a ported single speaker design. Have to think about it.
Ports can be closed temporarily. We actually supply foam for that (also for just attenuating port output) to suit our speakers LF output to room and placement.

Single Driver speakers however do show pretty poor pair matching, so you may not want to try this test, you may be disappointed.

The ones we test have a magnetostat HF Device is a Horn (nee. Waveguide) with a 10" LF Cone Driver and a 10th order crossover (passive) at a fairly low frequency.

If the drivers match to better than 0.5dB and the crossovers match too (at this rate of slope even small tolerances have big effects - so we pair not just drivers but also crossovers) the resulting null in this test is majorly impressive.

I once had a pair running in at a gentleman's home in a large high rise building with at best okay sound isolation. The speakers where run with the matching amp near clipping (this would be 110dB peaks @ 1m - per speaker) for a week day and night and with only a thick blanket to muffle the remainder a little more. No neighbours complained about the noise and the one asked could not hear it!

It was practically inaudible outside the flat door, the flat being in Hong Kong was on the small side and the walls not thick, even by London/Britain standards...

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 06:33 PM   #1173
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
...
"Yes, classical "omni" presentation. The room is filled with sound, it is pleasantly spacious but it is INSIDE THE ROOM and it has non of the spacial and directional characteristics of the original recording."

etc.

Nice interpretation Thorsten ...

IMO you are damned close to reality.

BTW i sometimes thought about building a Bose 901 clone for
fun. But i had always projects in mind which seemed to be more
reasonable to me.

I think this article tries to explain some effects involved without
judging or hyping it too much.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/425/#


AFAIK the Audiorama is back in store again ... they produce
a new series. I do not know whether the technical design changed much.
__________________
Oliver, RFZ believer (?)
www.dipol-audio.de

Last edited by LineArray; 31st March 2010 at 06:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:20 PM   #1174
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
...Nice interpretation Thorsten ...

IMO you are damned close to reality.
Thank you. I have heard quite a few Omni Systems (as you know, germany has a penchant for them, just as for ridiculous horns and other excotica, very unlike the US and the very proper english, but not as bad as the french).

I lived until 94 in Germany, until early 89 in the wrong halve though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
BTW i sometimes thought about building a Bose 901 clone for fun. But i had always projects in mind which seemed to be more
reasonable to me.
Back in the wrong halve of Germany before 89 we cloned the B*se 802 as well as the Zeck 15/3 for "PA" use. From a 802 to a 901 it was a small step. When we made a pair of 802's in solid Alu for fun (and pay) I made a pair of 901's in solid alu for my place. With one driver in the center of the nominal front and highly polished Alu they looked stunning. Of course we used much better quality drivers than B*se and needed less HF EQ.

They where sold on very quickly, as I could not stand listening to them, even used the wrong way around... :-) I concluded then and there that Amar B*se was descended from indian fakirs (or is that fakers).

So I put the decidedly more homely Schulze TH315 based coaxial speaker system (with shortened stand) back. Later I replaced that with my own column design using a pair of 20cm woofers under active control (microphone - ala B&M), a 12cm Schulze wideband driver and the typical east german plastic dome, soon replaced by a Motorola "lemonsqueezer" piezo tweeter.

I kept the TH315 together with a pair quite "fatherless ones" Klipsch Cornwall semi-clones using all EV Drivers/Horns in my bedroom as monitors for mixing down stuff.

Never had Audiorama's though, but heard them much later in 2nd hand stores. At the time I used JBL Control 1's, even against such low competition they did not impress. Looked pretty cool though, in a 70's & Lavalamp kind of way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
AFAIK the Audiorama is back in store again ... they produce a new series. I do not know whether the technical design changed much.
Ohhhmeegawd. The muthafunking seventies are back again.

Oh well, did I not hear about a Movie remake of Logans Run as well?

Seems the music playback industry matches the music producing industry - if you cannot innovate, just rip off the last three deacdes and make it a certain hit:

Click the image to open in full size.

No wonder the kids are GaGa for Lady GaGa...

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:23 PM   #1175
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
diyAudio Moderator R.I.P.
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Funny, my present experimental OB-OMNIs are apparently different than the rest....very focused and precise
But admittedly, I didnt expect that either, and its a big surprice
And driver are placed on the floor, which is even worse
I cannot work, but it does

A great number of speakers are poor designs, and so probably also most omnis
__________________
sometimes we know very little, and sometimes we know too much
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:34 PM   #1176
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
diyAudio Member
 
graaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Well, at least now we REALLY know why Logan was running. He was running away from ill focused, diffuse and boring Omni Sound... :-P
lost in interpetation

one interpretation or another, my interpretation of this Olsher's review is filtered by my experience with the flooders of course and I don't hear any of the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
the Soundscape was confined to within the room
not true WRT the flooders, I can hear things happening far beyond walls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
everything was diffusely spacious (due to a lot of in room reverb and a very long RT60) - but without being able to clearly focus on individual instruments in the soundscape.
not true WRT the flooders, actually I am more able to focus on individual instruments than in case of conventional setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Yes, read "back of hall perspective - plenty of long delayed reverb, much more reverb than direct sound, you can tell the Violins are on the left - sometimes.
not true WRT the flooders, I can hear no such reverb when listening to "Kind of Blue" for example
and actually I have interesting test CD with tracks with different sections of an orchestra playing, everything is exactly in place and "reach out and touch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
classical "omni" presentation. The room is filled with sound, it is pleasantly spacious but it is INSIDE THE ROOM and it has non of the spacial and directional characteristics of the original recording.
not true WRT the flooders at all

perhaps it is indeed that the flooders differ significantly from typical omni
actually El'Ol insists that I shouldn't call them omni, perhaps I really shouldn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Bose 901 does this job EVEN BETTER than supposed "True Omni's". They produce even more diffuse, spacious, reverby sounds than Omni's. If you don't believe me, try it!
"diffuse, spacious, reverby sounds"?

well, that is not what You get from the flooders!
and yes indeed - If you don't believe me, try it!

actually this is exactly what I tell everyone from the beginning of this thread

best!
graaf
__________________
"high phooey and hystereo" - Yascha Heifetz
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:36 PM   #1177
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
Funny, my present experimental OB-OMNIs are apparently different than the rest....very focused and precise
But if they cant design a good speaker of ordinary design, how then a good OMNI
Well, maybe.

Much depends on other factors. I once heard the same system to most intents (speakers where inndersound eros - aka KFC Speakers and an experimental amp plus dCs digital frontend) in two setups.

One was in a very long room, with heavy curtains at the end opposite of the listener, with the (dipole) speakers halve down the long dimension of the room room and the listening position at one of the narrow walls, IIRC heavy wall hanging carpet behind listening position and quite plush and absorbent sofa (a bit too victorian for my taste).

This kind of long, narrow living room is quite common in southern england BTW, it is the result of the terraced houses and knocking together the two small rooms previously serving respectively as parlour and as dining room.

I heard basically the same system a few weeks later in a similar size and shape room, this time placed very near one of the long walls with no intentional or incidental room treatment and the listening position opposite.

Predictably both systems sounded dramatically different.

The first was quite stunning, with a "the walls are gone" feel, the second sounded a bloody awful mess, with not even tonality right, never mind anything else, claustrophobic, brrrrrrr.

So, in the end how you use it matters a lot as well.

Me being kind of "1970's modern" inclined with my choice of living spaces (pretty bare, large if possible, white in both colour and acoustics) need quite well focused speakers to avoid drowning in reverb sauce. Put omni's in my rooms and even you run out like Logan.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:43 PM   #1178
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
diyAudio Member
 
graaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
So, in the end how you use it matters a lot as well.
yes, "loudspeakers and room as a system"
__________________
"high phooey and hystereo" - Yascha Heifetz
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:44 PM   #1179
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
this Olsher's review
Who later designed a range of speakers with upwards pointing woofers and forward pointing tweeters. Just BTB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
the flooders
If you use the ceiling as the first reflection with a fllor that is heavily carpeted and hence quite absorbent this may work to a reasonable degree, I can see issues with tonal balance though.

If this implemented with drivers having a frequency response that is boosted at high frequencies and narrows at frequencies it may kind of work.

Where I tried the Carllson Sonab's the floor and ceiling where acoustically highly reflective. As is the case with my current living room.

I rather doubt that under those kind of conditions you would like your flooders, if you do, maybe I see pair of 901's or Audiorama's in your future?

:-P

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2010, 07:45 PM   #1180
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
diyAudio Member
 
graaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
Funny, my present experimental OB-OMNIs are apparently different than the rest....very focused and precise
But admittedly, I didnt expect that either, and its a big surprice
And driver are placed on the floor, which is even worse
I cannot work, but it does
yes, it cannot work but it does, exactly!

happy to hear that You enjoy the experiment

the proof of the pudding is in the eating

best,
graaf
__________________
"high phooey and hystereo" - Yascha Heifetz
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using a diffuser cone for up-firing speakers tspringer99 Multi-Way 19 23rd July 2014 03:04 AM
Floor Standing Speakers. gurpreetsingh Full Range 11 12th June 2012 07:42 AM
side/ rear firing speakers Good/Bad? mcmahon48 Multi-Way 1 6th February 2009 01:28 PM
How far can the driver of a down-firing sub be from the floor? The Paulinator Subwoofers 11 16th May 2007 09:10 PM
Woofer: side firing pair vs front firing? tcpip Multi-Way 13 9th September 2005 03:13 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:03 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2