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Old 29th March 2010, 01:11 PM   #1121
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
I agree, no wavefiled synthesis is needed but speakers and the room and the decoder in our heads as a system
This is something that I tend to believe too but in the 80 years of audio reproduction nobody was yet able to describe the necessary framework in an objective way.
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Old 29th March 2010, 02:17 PM   #1122
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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What do you mean by "turned 90"? This is not how multichannel audio works. Upmix algorithms had and have all sorts of problems and limitations, that's why multichannel audio like we know it today was invented (see Toole for more details). The problem is that the industry that would benefit the most from multichannel audio didn't adopt it (yet): the audio industry. The technical platform is there but instead of using it, guys like Key "invent" a "new" upmix algorithm. This will not change things to the better.
With turning 90 I mean that I have one of my ears turned to the middle between the two speakers and the other looking away from it, so that the speakers of a stereo setup become front and rear of the same side. With multichannel I meant 5.1. And what I wanted to say is that mixing between front and rear of the same side has to be very different from mixing between the two front cannels.
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Old 29th March 2010, 02:34 PM   #1123
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That's has something to do with how phantom source localization works. Furthermore encoding 4 channels into two results in a loss of information and bad channel separation. Wait for Toole's book to arrive. It should then become much more clearer.

Last edited by markus76; 29th March 2010 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 29th March 2010, 02:41 PM   #1124
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Just one question:
What is the current standard for panning between front and rear of the same side?
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Old 29th March 2010, 02:58 PM   #1125
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We can't localize phantom sources on the sides very well so it should not be tried. Only additional loudspeakers would help. Left and right surround channels should be used for envelopment. Something 2 channel stereo can't provide.
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Old 29th March 2010, 03:40 PM   #1126
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Listen to Andrea von Salis recordings. Speakers stand in 4 x 90 and ideally front and rear speakers are the same type and driven by the same stereo amp. My percussion CD meanwhile is sold for 69 used at Amazon, but there are demo downloads at their website.
And if Key had a mixing algorithm that really works and would licence it to manufacturers of mixers, that would also be fine.

I heard that in cinemas the center is used for dialogues only. So is panning usually only done between left and right?
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Old 29th March 2010, 03:50 PM   #1127
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Listen to Andrea von Salis recordings. Speakers stand in 4 x 90 and ideally front and rear speakers are the same type and driven by the same stereo amp. My percussion CD meanwhile is sold for 69 used at Amazon, but there are demo downloads at their website.
And if Key had a mixing algorithm that really works and would licence it to manufacturers of mixers, that would also be fine.
Doesn't sound like a realistic scenario. Multichannel is here, why try to push a new standard? The music industry is further nullifying itself with that kind of behavior.

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Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
I heard that in cinemas the center is used for dialogues only. So is panning usually only done between left and right?
There is no "usual". You would have to differentiate between cinema sound and music. Cinema is somewhat standardized (e.g. dialogs mostly from the center channel to get rid of the "stereo seat"), music is just pure chaos.
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Old 29th March 2010, 04:23 PM   #1128
Paul W is offline Paul W  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
The music industry is further nullifying itself with that kind of behavior.... music is just pure chaos.
So sad, but so true. Optimize a system for one recording only to have a completely different mix in the next recording.
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Old 29th March 2010, 04:30 PM   #1129
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Someone that actually agrees with what I say? That's new
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Old 29th March 2010, 04:44 PM   #1130
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Doesn't sound like a realistic scenario. Multichannel is here, why try to push a new standard? The music industry is further nullifying itself with that kind of behavior.
Of course a new standard like the AVS quadrophonia will never happen. Maybe it would be the standard today if it had been invented in 1960. But it is an experience I didn't want to miss.

What concerns new mixing methods: They are possible within the existing standard.
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