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Old 28th March 2010, 12:43 AM   #1081
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hello Key,

How does your system differs from Gerzon's Ambisonics?
Ambisonics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ambisonic.Net - where surround-sound comes to life

- Elias

Quote:
Originally Posted by Key View Post
The first public stereo performance used more than 2 speakers. Stereo is limited to 2 transmission channels but it has never been limited to 2 playback channels. There is no standard for "Stereo" yet. There never has been a concrete standard for stereo as far as I know. That is what we are trying to find here right? Then we must explore all of the options and not let the tail wag the dog.



Okay I drew out some subjective impressions of Stereophony on paper a while back and redid them on the computer to make them more clear.

Click the image to open in full size.

I was being sort of nice with that picture and trying to encompass all different flavors of speakers. But with a poor speaker generally the imaging will be limited to in between the triangles. Even with a great speaker conventional mastering and mixing tends to limit the imaging within that triangle even though it can be stretched out to 180 degrees of coverage. There are products that make use of this illusion and get there in different ways. The depth coverage is not limited to the colored area but that is the area where I perceive things as being "full bandwidth". Anything pushed back in depth further than that area generally will not sound like a pop record (where the overall instruments end up in a balance resembling pink noise) but will have less high end and not as an extreme bass. Localization in front of the speakers themselves is very rare but can happen. And I pretty much only limited my examples to the ones that actually work the best - equal spacing. My anecdotal findings are consistent with Wendy Carlos in regards to speaker placement and hollow spots in the coverage.
Wendy Carlos Surround1





More than one way to end up at the same location. And yeah I wasn't exactly directing it at non conventional speakers where the image is already extended. And this is one of the reasons I was telling him maybe the studios should have kept the flooders.
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Old 28th March 2010, 06:58 AM   #1082
Key is offline Key  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
from my perspective there is one principal problem with those interesting concepts, the same problem as with ambiophonics
they seem to offer various alternatives of the audiophile chamber, that is an exclusively dedicated listening room for ultimate satisfaction of single listener or perhaps a couple, seated in a very precise spot
Generally the impression from a distance is remarkably the same as sitting close. It's like the subjective reviews you read about Geddes' and Linkwitz's speakers where the tonality barely shifts except it's wider and more obvious. You get a "super stereo" effect from a distance but it is really strange when you get up from the normal listening spot after a while and walk away with a song playing. You can get up turn around and walk around the corner and the tonality doesn't shift.

Quote:
is this hexaphonic less impractical than ambiophonics? what are its sonic advantages in comparison to ambiophonics?
Hmm less impractical? Generally I think hexaphonic or any rear speakers are going to be for perfectionists or mixers. Quad is plenty to immerse most any casual listener. If you start to pick it apart too much or see through the illusion then adding a fifth channel or a sixth will help. But the improvement is not that great like moving from mono to stereo or stereo to quad. Sonic advantages would be that it actually works, isn't colored, and is backwards compatible with normal stereo.



Quote:
I haven't but I always had sympathy for the idea, at least it was not computer audio and they recommended using speakers with beautiful Bandor drivers
Well it's possible to make an analog version but I just prefer a computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
So your "system" processes stereo into 6 separate channels? Something like Dolby Pro Logic II. I still don't understand why anybody would want to have that these days. Surround sound gives much better directional control over the sound field.
Does it? I mean I'm sure it measures all nice and pretty but does it really give you better control? or are you just guessing here?

Last edited by Key; 28th March 2010 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 28th March 2010, 07:15 AM   #1083
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Yes, building a studio can cost a lot of money.
Please explain.
I think it wouldn't be OT here.
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Old 28th March 2010, 07:18 AM   #1084
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Hello,

I've been listening for a few hours with the 2-way monopole in ceiling firing arrangement. The box is placed beside a wall on the floor and I'm listening at 2 to 5 meters distance.

- Elias
How did you adjust the beaming?

Last edited by el`Ol; 28th March 2010 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 28th March 2010, 07:41 AM   #1085
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Surround sound gives much better directional control over the sound field.
If you mean that five-channel stuff: Many music producers are not happy with it and leave the center channel away. Some lables (among them Chesky records) once considered rebelling against 5.1.and wanted to establisch a hexaphonic setup, just not exacly 6 x 60 like Key.

Key, maybe you want to try a 2+2+2 recording from the MDG:
MDG-Musikproduktion Dabringhaus und Grimm
Here you can see what the setup looks like:
Neue Seite 1
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Old 28th March 2010, 10:24 AM   #1086
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key View Post
Generally the impression from a distance is remarkably the same as sitting close.
(...)
You get a "super stereo" effect from a distance but it is really strange when you get up from the normal listening spot after a while and walk away with a song playing. You can get up turn around and walk around the corner and the tonality doesn't shift.
(...)
Hmm less impractical?
You mean the distance from the front speakers?

is it necessary for the listener to be seated somewhere along an axis of symmetry of the setup?
how much off center can the listener move?

I understand that one can walk around and the tonality doesn't shift but what about imaging? Do the images shift?

This would be impractical in the first place (not to mention necessity of putting six speakers in the specific locations in the room and of all those wires around)

with the single driver flooder imaging is stable and robust, You can walk around and images stay in their virtual places, no images shift occurs

no tonality shift can be achieved even with non-coincident two-way flooder as Elias' test has shown

best,
graaf
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Old 28th March 2010, 11:15 AM   #1087
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Hello,

I've been listening for a few hours with the 2-way monopole in ceiling firing arrangement. The box is placed beside a wall on the floor and I'm listening at 2 to 5 meters distance.

Again this was a MONO setup with one speaker.
thanks for the post Elias

50 such posts instead of 500 go-read-the-books posts and this would be a great thread

best,
graaf
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Old 28th March 2010, 11:22 AM   #1088
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Yes, building a studio can cost a lot of money.
OK,
doesn't seem as if someone can do this with a bit of Basotect in one's basement.
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Old 28th March 2010, 12:12 PM   #1089
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
BTW has anyone got a chance to listen to Dynavector Superstereo?
DYNAVECTOR SuperStereo Adapter DV ADP-3

I haven't but I always had sympathy for the idea, at least it was not computer audio and they recommended using speakers with beautiful Bandor drivers
I heard the demo on several occasions.

The best I can say is that they reminded me of "pure frontal" versions of "pseudo quadro" I heard in the early 80's and the better version of "pro logic stereo" processed music, which is to say I too no great offence but preferred the presentation with the reverb effect system off.

I find the whole thread quite facinating.

I can symphasise with the "no sweet spot" results of Omni's and related concepts that propagate sound mostly indirectly and through often many reflections for the consistent and even tonality they provide and the lack of a sweet spot.

Yet even as someone who does not venerate the artificial idol and totem of soundstaging and 3d soundscaping etc. as much as the average audiophile, if I find their imaging by far too diffuse and imprecise to be a reasonable representation of musical reality, unless we are talking listening outside the actual concert hall, through a window into my smaller living room.

Of course, this is my personal preference and what happens when I listen to such systems and WHY they fail to prompt the "suspension of disbelief" in my case AT ALL.

While on the other hand systems that are highly directional and offer reasonable even directivity (the two are not identical) all do it to some degree for me and the ones where the controlled directivity extends across a sufficiently wide bandwidth do it with surprising consistency even across different styles of music.

To be the subjective removal of walls afforded by sufficiently directional systems helps to transport me into the performance venue (even if the venue is virtual) and out of my living/listening room. To me this "does it".

Yet I can perfectly "see" and accept preferences to the opposite, for reproduction, even if they lack any semblance to the "gestalt" of the performance supposedly being experienced.

In the end it matters that whoever is listening enjoys the music and the sound of the system, if not, there is no point having it, no matter what reams of research papers say.

It may best not to elevate such personal preference (be it either the one for highly directional systems, for highly diffuse systems or indeed for the common midway approach between the extremes) to a religion and to proselytise for converts...

Ciao T
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Old 28th March 2010, 12:36 PM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key View Post
Does it? I mean I'm sure it measures all nice and pretty but does it really give you better control? or are you just guessing here?
Sure it does because you have to guess about a soundfield's directional characteristics when deriving additional channels from a 2 channel stereo signal. Multichannel signals are (or can be) truely directional.
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