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Old 26th March 2010, 10:59 AM   #1031
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
The magic of such an arrangement is mostly gone, as soon as a matured speaker is placed in the same room ... the "wow" effect then boils down the to the certain aspects this arrangement is good at and the myriads of other aspects come to mind again after the long term adaption.
Is that also true for your DML speakers?
In fact the speakers that impressed me most at the Highend show (which I have attended three times) had very poor imaging: The Martion Orgon active four-way horn system and the Analysis Audio ribbon/magnetostat dipole speakers.
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Old 26th March 2010, 11:04 AM   #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graaf View Post
You know? Then why don't You just tell us?
I tried to.

An experimental prototype serving for investigation
of some detail aspects for my next speaker waits
on my workbench. It will presumably be disassembled
and thrown away after some days, when its job is done.

But i will go there now and work on it.
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Old 26th March 2010, 11:13 AM   #1033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Is that also true for your DML speakers?
In fact the speakers that impressed me most at the Highend show (which I have attended three times) had very poor imaging: The Martion Orgon active four-way horn system and the Analysis Audio ribbon/magnetostat dipole speakers.
I auditioned the analysis audio "omikron" for several hours in the
distributors listening room.

It is a well tempered, detailed and maturated speaker for me
... that sounds like a telephone outside the sweet spot or small
preferable listening area especially when you stand up.

It has a serious problem with directivity of magnetostatic
midrange/woofer and tweeter ribbon not matching.
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Old 26th March 2010, 11:52 AM   #1034
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
I tried to.
well, where and when? I ask because I am really interested and probably have overlooked that post

I searched 50 posts of Yours in this thread. I have found couple of them covering the virtues of DML's and the rest covering various other topics like room modes, Your line arrays, music, some theoretical investigations, not to mention "ultimate Klaus Schulze Speaker"...

but no, I haven't found anything like proposition of development of the "ad hoc arrangement" like I propose

rather I can see proposition of total abandonment of my proposition:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
I could imagine making a ceiling flooder from an array of mini
widerangers which is Xoed with a time delayed woofer.

The woofer would cover the modal to transitional range of the room
say up to 500 Hz and the widerange array would cover the "rest".

Radiation pattern (electronic phase control ?) would be aligned
to minimize sound directly radiated to the listener and could
be made more frequency independent compared to a fullranger.

Maybe a waveguide could do the job too ...
perhaps It can be regarded as a new concept in the sense You wrote here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
That does not mean that a more "ad hoc arrangement" like you propose it cannot be further
developed or could not serve as a starting point for a new concept.
but certainly as an answer to my question "what can be done with that?" (meaning the simplistic flooder) it can be read only as "throw it away!"

best regards,
graaf
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Last edited by graaf; 26th March 2010 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 26th March 2010, 12:16 PM   #1035
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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on the other hand I have found interesting attempt at reconstruction of the flooder concept:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
The ceiling flooder does not seem to mimic an omnidirectional source,
but a source having increasing directivity with frequency thereby
using the ceiling as a reflector to indroduce diffusivity.

The direct sound even falls off with rising frequency.

If equalized to compensate the - usually falling with frequency -
overall radiated power into the room this may lead to a balanced
frequency response in a wide area of the room.
yes, I like this explanation. This in fact seems to be what the flooder is doing (would Your time delayed array do the same? is this the same concept?)

I would only say that - usually falling with frequency - perhaps does not apply as much as in the case of conventional speakers because the flooder is projecting sound into the upper part of the room which is typically much less absorbtive than the lower and it is absorption (togehter with directivity of the loudspeaker) that causes this fall of overall radiated power in function of frequency, isn't it?

on the other hand I cannot confirm this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
What is sacrificed is localization and focus, if present on the
recording. Think of transients from drums and cymbals ... and
the consonants of the human voice.

After having sacrificed that
I cannot witness that anything is sacrificed in that respect.

best,
graaf
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Old 26th March 2010, 01:27 PM   #1036
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Well, looks like it takes another 2 years 'til you can see Linkwitz's "agenda".
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Old 26th March 2010, 01:35 PM   #1037
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
I auditioned the analysis audio "omikron" for several hours in the
distributors listening room.

It is a well tempered, detailed and maturated speaker for me
... that sounds like a telephone outside the sweet spot or small
preferable listening area especially when you stand up.
Exacly this is where DMLs prevail. But is it sufficient to prefer your DMLs to the Analysis?
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Old 26th March 2010, 02:34 PM   #1038
Key is offline Key  United States
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Linkwitz has a lot of credibility with me because he actually does admit he could be wrong about his hypothesis. And I guess I like his general question about trying to find what is the most accurate we can do with stereo in a room. In a general sense I agree with what he says about stereo being a totally satisfying experience that can be very realistic. The main thing I differ with him about is I think he should give stereo-surround another go but with a different speaker placement and decoder.

If he truly can get the imaging I can get with 4,5, or 6 speakers with 2 then I would gladly switch to a speaker more like that design. But he has already admitted that you do not get that kind of perceptual coverage which to me is unacceptable.

Last edited by Key; 26th March 2010 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 26th March 2010, 02:52 PM   #1039
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key View Post
...but with a different speaker placement and decoder.
If you don't want to tell us your speaker placement, then at least the decoder?

If not, here is some reading stuff about an other strange system:
http://www.andreavonsalis.com/Andrea...on_system.html

Last edited by el`Ol; 26th March 2010 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 26th March 2010, 04:29 PM   #1040
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hello Graaf,

I have one (1) monopole box borrowed from my friend at house and I'm thinking to try ceiling firing arrangement with that. It's a 12litres bookshelf speaker with 6.5" midrange and a dome tweeter. I understand that the dome radiation may be too wide for floor placement, but I can also use acoustic absorption panels to block the direct sound if needed.

Would you advice the best arrangement for a such a test? I'll place the speaker on the floor facing upwards. Along the side or front wall? Or a distance from a wall?

Note again it will be a MONO

- Elias
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