Due to size I have not read all this thread yet, but here is a link that looks an interesting concept !
- James Romeyn
- James Romeyn
Attachments
From the above linked page:
"Later James experimented with Dr. Floyd Toole’s side-firing ambiance theories, which led to Late Ceiling Splash (LCS)."
Now, I know about side firing speakers yes I do, but I cannot recall Toole experiencing with those concepts ?
Also , it is not immediately apparent how potentially beneficial 'side firing' leads to ceiling reflection as a solution ?
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neither can I
but who knows what Dr Toole does when nobody is looking
Also , it is not immediately apparent how potentially beneficial 'side firing' leads to ceiling reflection as a solution ?
yeah, OTOH my own "side firing" experiments led me eventually to a FCUFS concept* ... however I can't remember anymore how they did
*of which this LCS seems to be a sort of cleverly disguised commercial ripp-off
From the above linked page:
"Later James experimented with Dr. Floyd Toole’s side-firing ambiance theories, which led to Late Ceiling Splash (LCS)."
Now, I know about side firing speakers yes I do, but I cannot recall Toole experiencing with those concepts ?
Also , it is not immediately apparent how potentially beneficial 'side firing' leads to ceiling reflection as a solution ?
.
I think it's a heavily "derived" accounting of Toole's work.
Likely derived from his research on first order reflections (vs. loudspeaker directivity), and also from his work on multi-channel.
In a loose sense, you can say that multi-channel (surround speakers) is "side-firing".. no?
So, did you ever leave the studio to take 25th row and shut your eyes?
Maybe your perception of reality is based mostly from what you hear in your studio, using front firing speaker?
I prefer side wall mounted speakers like Beveridge style positioning. Transducer close to wall creates an reflection image like an 360 deg dispersion without actual reflections like with MBL. MBL would be the sign of commercial success of "flooder" (don't like that name really). I personally can't stand "beemers" any more - thats for sure. They all reveal themselves immediately as "reproduction" - I'm after at least an "lllusion".
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I use the Bremen speakers and they are superb. But not as depicted in the photos on a front wall but on side walls. The room is 5x4,7m (height is 2,9). I sit on the 5m wall, in a sofa against the wall. Speakers tweeter centre is 0,9m above floor. Ear to speaker distance is 3,1m so they sit just a bit past middle of the wall. So I actually play the widest possible way. Still, the room is quite square.
It may seem wide but works very well. No hole in the middle but great stage. Walls disapear. Orchestra is grand. Tight close-mic'd recording sound... close, but not dead.
No hint of speakers on most recordings. I have (2) eq'd subs in the corners but currently no way to delay the Bremens for time alignment but they are a nice addition anyway. Many would be satisfied by the Bremens alone I would guess as the bass gain from the walls does the trick. The Bremens run full range - subs are LP at 35 hz 4th order. / 500W Ice-power per sub. Search for IKEA bowl subs on the forum.
D/A is a combo of Ians clock, Ackos teflon DAC and 10 ohm/Lundahl MC trafo as I/V connected with 15cm wire to a pair of ICE-power ASP-1000. I'm using the digital level control in the D/A ESS chip. The whole system is run from a 5KVA 115-115 volt shielded isolation trafo. Short but sweet signal chain. All cabling is single core.
The music experience this system provides is exciting and involving. From Emma Kirkby, via Keith Jarret and Pink Floyd to Meshugga
The big things started to happen when speakers came onto the wall. This was a revelation. To have a real good source is also nice.
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It may seem wide but works very well. No hole in the middle but great stage. Walls disapear. Orchestra is grand. Tight close-mic'd recording sound... close, but not dead.
No hint of speakers on most recordings. I have (2) eq'd subs in the corners but currently no way to delay the Bremens for time alignment but they are a nice addition anyway. Many would be satisfied by the Bremens alone I would guess as the bass gain from the walls does the trick. The Bremens run full range - subs are LP at 35 hz 4th order. / 500W Ice-power per sub. Search for IKEA bowl subs on the forum.
D/A is a combo of Ians clock, Ackos teflon DAC and 10 ohm/Lundahl MC trafo as I/V connected with 15cm wire to a pair of ICE-power ASP-1000. I'm using the digital level control in the D/A ESS chip. The whole system is run from a 5KVA 115-115 volt shielded isolation trafo. Short but sweet signal chain. All cabling is single core.
The music experience this system provides is exciting and involving. From Emma Kirkby, via Keith Jarret and Pink Floyd to Meshugga
The big things started to happen when speakers came onto the wall. This was a revelation. To have a real good source is also nice.
//
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there was a picture posted earlier in this thread by myself of Bremen speaker in a sidewall placement:
It may seem wide but works very well. No hole in the middle but great stage. Walls disapear. Orchestra is grand. Tight close-mic'd recording sound... close, but not dead.
No hint of speakers on most recordings.
...
The music experience this system provides is exciting and involving. From Emma Kirkby, via Keith Jarret and Pink Floyd to Meshugga
The big things started to happen when speakers came onto the wall. This was a revelation.
this is how the sidewall/Beveridge placement works
thanks for sharing Your observations!
'Soffit' mounting speakers is a good way to get rid of early reflections. Putting them in the sidewalls in a long-narrow room is as good position as any. Danley-style horns come to ming for that application. Just make sure that no detrimential signal comes from the front wall reflection, if the speaker is more omni.
Next evolution of the theme could use a DSP to delay the 'effect' speaker to make the later arriving soundfield more dense and arrive more laterally... wait, since Dolby surround every upmixer can do this. Another case of "Ancients keep stealing our inventions".
LeJeune's and Romeirin's 'ceiling splash' is a clever way to get a good clean ISD gap with a very dense 'reverb tail'. Only caveat is that it is not laterally arriving. Aiming the directional 'reverb' speaker to the sidewall gets you the 'lateral' part, but depending on the room, doesn't give enough signal delay gap. Thats why it is what it is.
Next evolution of the theme could use a DSP to delay the 'effect' speaker to make the later arriving soundfield more dense and arrive more laterally... wait, since Dolby surround every upmixer can do this. Another case of "Ancients keep stealing our inventions".
^Yes this wheel has been invented already - Dolby Prologic (II) encoding! Most AV receivers have DPLII and many parameters are adjustable, eg. surround/rear speaker distance/delay/phase warp.
Dolby Pro Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dolby Pro Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Bech study referenced but not linked as far as i could find...
http://orbit.dtu.dk/fedora/objects/orbit:24002/datastreams/file_5317430/content
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http://orbit.dtu.dk/fedora/objects/orbit:24002/datastreams/file_5317430/content
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meanwhile up-firing speakers conquer the realm of HT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b5sAsZyRm_k#t=45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b5sAsZyRm_k#t=45
...and a really cute little reporter visits Mr Hiroyuki Yoshii - who went from big waveguides in the 80s (which can be seen in the background around 0:25-0:30) to diminutive up-firing speakers in the 21st (long vertical tubes behind "Mr Time Domain"):
???????? - YouTube
???????? - YouTube
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I cannot see any up firing speakers in that Onkyo commercial
BTW, Onkyo did make some interesting speakers in the past:
Of course it is not floor coupled nor up firing, but horns and high efficiency. But hey that's exactly what Mr Hiroyuki Yoshii did too
And now they are into up-firing
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