The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers

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Did it ever appear to you that you hear those triangles mostly from the center or the outer limits of your acoustic scene, but rarely from say 20°?

Very good point :)

As I remember, triangles in orchestra are indeed mostly at left or right corner. But I've also heard ones close to the center. Have to confirm that again.


to Graaf,

I've tried installed the WG'ed tweeter on the top of mid-OB. (So that's higher than listening position and also no direct sound.)

In that setup, the HF is a bit higher in SPL. Also, the images are higher, too. HF sounds would be floating pretty high, above the listening position. Kind of odd.

When on floor, the HF sound seems fill the whole wall or whole room. I like this much better.


to Markus,

My previous system was horn-based 2-sh stereo. Horn loaded above 200Hz or so, bass was (again) dipole.

The directivity of that system was not very uniform. Mid horn is tractrix, tweeter is this same Dayton 12" circular WG (with huge c-t-c distance). So, that was nowhere near the level of SH-50 (in directivity control).

Also, I haven't had any chance to hear SH-50, let alone in my place.

Nevertheless, with the current system - a mixed bag 3ch - the imaging is almost always better than the real person in room :D Of course it depends on the recordings, but the images from playback are often clearer and more focused than my talking families in room. Interesting, huh :D
 
to Graaf,

I've tried installed the WG'ed tweeter on the top of mid-OB. (So that's higher than listening position and also no direct sound.)

In that setup, the HF is a bit higher in SPL. Also, the images are higher, too. HF sounds would be floating pretty high, above the listening position. Kind of odd.

When on floor, the HF sound seems fill the whole wall or whole room. I like this much better.

I see thanks :) what about a midway position ie. mouth of the waveguide about 70-80 cm above the floor?

because on top of the mid-OB's looks like real high like 120-130 cm or more? is that correct?

Nevertheless, with the current system - a mixed bag 3ch - the imaging is almost always better than the real person in room :D Of course it depends on the recordings, but the images from playback are often clearer and more focused than my talking families in room. Interesting, huh :D

definitely sounds like a successful multichannel setup - at last :D
 
... All concrete, only straight angles, open floorplan, sparse furniture, no curtains, no rugs. ...

Almost like mine :eek:

I have curtains, book shelves, CD racks, though. No echo, luckily:D

Compared with a dead room, the images of real persons in a reflective room are indeed expanded and fuzzy. Dialogs across rooms are also difficult to identify.

Funny that in this very room, sounds from speakers are clearer than the real 'things'. That's interesting:D



to Graaf,

I can try, but no proper stands readily availible. I have to make them.

I'm afraid normal stools or chairs might be too bulky to introduce some interferences.

ps. the OB is 140cm high, pretty close.
 
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Compared with a dead room, the images of real persons in a reflective room are indeed expanded and fuzzy. Dialogs across rooms are also difficult to identify.

Some music genres rely on the "spaciousness effect". That's what makes the listening experience more pleasant. The problem I have with this approach is that it doesn't work with TV/Movies and music genres that are made for dry acoustics (everything percussive). I'd like to have a solution that let's me switch the effect on and off or adjust its level.

Funny that in this very room, sounds from speakers are clearer than the real 'things'.

Speakers don't move, people do.
 
If we put directly in side walls some fullrangers - we improve also tonal balance (no BStep) and difraction issues, but due to high directivity of speakers, HF could be not enough and may be quantity of reflected sound against direct would be even mre than needed.

In such case may be good solution - central channel in the middle of the room bitween sidewall speakers: add some HF direct sound and will make soundstage "bulletproof" Someone tried?
 
Orford say that high directional speakers wil not work in beveridege position.

Topic you linked - I read it, but its not exactly the same)) Side speaker are not on walls, but in common cabinet...

yes, I know, therefore I said "in a sense"

because sidewall reflections in this case effectively become virtual sidewall in-wall mounted L and R speakers, check out simulations on pages 36-37 of the linked thread
 
in a sense of soundstage.

yes, You're right

But with SSS we loose possibility to avoid diffraction and BStep absense, as we can with IBaffeld at sidewalls speakers. It also guit valuable benfit from such placement...

yes, You're right again - the idea of on-wall speakers dedicated to side-wall placement is definitely worth pursuing

Bremen speakers can be seen as interesting try though they are certainly not free from diffraction problems:
 

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But with SSS we loose possibility to avoid diffraction and BStep absense, as we can with IBaffeld at sidewalls speakers. It also guit valuable benfit from such placement...

There is practically no baffle step in SSS. Notice that all the three elements emit sound all the time regardless of the L and R stereo signals. The energy is just steered in different directions into the room.
 
About the perception of images (especially HF), I had some observations last night.

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As I remember, triangles in orchestra are indeed mostly at left or right corner. But I've also heard ones close to the center. Have to confirm that again.
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First, about the locations, I did find the triangles appear nearby the center in some recordings.

For clearer definition, I added some lines and angles onto the drawing of my listening room:
listeninglivingroom_ang.png


The central channel DML panel is quite large with a span approaching +/-15 degree. And the aforementioned triangles are all located within this range.

In this album, in the last track, the triangle is well within the area of DML panel. I estimate that's more like 12 degree or so.

And in this album (I believe it's very famous around various audio shows), there're several tracks coming with triangle which is even closer to the center.

For more precise definition, I have to put this for reference:
imageloc_ang.png

(I got through many other disturbing pictures to get this, believe me.)

The dead center is an imaginary line from the center of the listener's head through the nose tip. (assumed it's not crooked)

An angle slightly off center can be an imaginary line from the center of head through one nostril, or through the inner corner of an eye, etc...

The triangles in the album "Diabolus in Musica" are very near the center. I feel they mostly appear at the lines through my right nostril or the inner corner of my right eye. (there's one or two slightly far off ...)

(A side note: put it on drawing gives me somewhat different feels about the imaginary perception angles. I feel the angle is even smaller in my head. How interesting.)

Sorry if this is way too hair-splitting. I'd like to explain the situations of imaging more precisely.

In such a reflective room and a system with mixed directivities (and very diffused HF), the locations of images can be identified as above, I guess that's not too shabby. :)
 
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