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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers
The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers
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Old 17th June 2013, 02:01 AM   #2851
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Another way of looking at the situation is that the ear/brain is reacting to the sound field that it encounters, not to speakers that happen to be producing that sound field. Which is why multi-channel if really well done will also do the job, the amount of sound information 'meaningful' to the recorded event is enough to mask the fact that mechanical drivers, located at certain spots, are producing the information - if the drivers give away too many clues that they are the "culprits", trying to fake it, then the illusion fails. Normal stereo has only 2 directly facing baffles to do this job, so they have to be on their best behaviour to make it happen ...
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Old 17th June 2013, 06:24 AM   #2852
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Because I've experienced this effect over and over again, on a number of setups
can You please describe some of them? Types of speakers and of rooms and of used stereo geometry?
Have they anything in common besides (possibly) the low level of IM or other distortions?
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Old 17th June 2013, 06:29 AM   #2853
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Edit: Pano has come from the angle of optimising the speaker, myself from looking at the system as a totality
You mean things like audiophile cabling or NOS valves etc.?
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Old 17th June 2013, 07:13 AM   #2854
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Nothing really special in the audiophile sense about the setups other than the level and type of tweaking: the speakers have until recently been classic 2-ways, bookshelf up to floorstanding, with simple, straightforward crossovers. Tweeters were non-metal domes, and normal cone; all poor connections inside the carcase were eliminated, and more recent examples had their crossover electrolytics replaced with Solen units.

An essential was always ensuring good coupling to heavy mass, homemade, sandfilled concrete stands for the bookshelfs using Blu-Tack to link speaker and support, with spike coupling to the floor. I also used extra mass damping on top of the speakers - the goal was to make pushing on the side of the speaker feel like pushing on a very heavy piece of furniture.

The rooms have been various types: cathedral ceiling in one, with carpet; wood lined, with timber floor in another, and glass most of the way down one side. Geometries I have not worried about, no toe-in and such-like, for no other reason than I wasn't interested in such things ...

Key to the electronics side was simplicity: no pre-amp, no input switching, until recently digital volume control directly driving power amp - complexity and extra fussiness breeds distortion artifacts.

No, very little of the normal audiophile "gadgets" - original cable was van der Hul, but that was just because I caught "that" bug at the time, and I've used it for a fair bit of the time, just because it was there. In essence, I look for weaknesses throughout the system and solve, improve them; rather than have a fetish about using "magic" parts.

The principle has always been tracking down 'the weakest link in the chain' thing - if you knock each one over, eventually the system gets good enough to work to the level that I'm talking about ...

Last edited by fas42; 17th June 2013 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:04 AM   #2855
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Nothing really special in the audiophile sense about the setups other than the level and type of tweaking
I see, I wonder though how this tweaking translates to the needed reduction of distortions, in other words how it fits into Your low level of distortion hypothesis
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:05 AM   #2856
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Interestingly enough, that's exactly what I've suggested a number of times, in a number of posts. And, the result will be that the person can't localise it - meaning, that they can point to where it is that the sound appears to be coming from, as in, I hear a piano playing over there, and the drums are in that place - but if asked to point to the speakers the response will just be a wild guess ...
You're probably describing a sound field where there're so many confusing/ambiguous/missing localization cues that the brain simply creates its own reality (not that it wouldn't do that all the time anyway) that has nothing or very little to do with the real situation.

Could you post an impulse response measured at the listening position from a room (system) that has the said qualities?

Last edited by markus76; 17th June 2013 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:28 AM   #2857
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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You're probably describing a sound field where there're so many confusing/ambiguous/missing localization cues that the brain simply creates its own reality (not that it wouldn't do that all the time anyway)
yeah, perhaps it's a matter of those high level brain processes, it appears that it's better to have some and that systems like FCUFS are simply only for people with some high level brain processes
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:58 AM   #2858
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Here, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/loung...ml#post3526022, I explain the key aspects I worry about - and there's some interesting material in the following posts relating to the points made ...
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Old 17th June 2013, 09:26 AM   #2859
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Here, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/loung...ml#post3526022, I explain the key aspects I worry about - and there's some interesting material in the following posts relating to the points made ...
interesting discussion
I do not put into question anything of what You say out of Your personal experience but still I would like to see some scientific explanations of what is going on, some scientifically explained link between what You do and levels of identifiable distortions of particular types and how it affects imaging/soundstaging of an audio system
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Old 17th June 2013, 11:54 AM   #2860
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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interesting discussion
I do not put into question anything of what You say out of Your personal experience but still I would like to see some scientific explanations of what is going on, some scientifically explained link between what You do and levels of identifiable distortions of particular types and how it affects imaging/soundstaging of an audio system
This might be something that fits better in the other discussion, but I've long thought that physics / math and measurements..while able to offer some insight into the things we hear, really can't give us the whole story. Individual hearing and subjectivity always creep into it because..well...we're human beings and we're different.

Our hearing mechanisms might all operate on the same basic principles, but I think there's quite a bit that we just can't measure or illustrate because we just don't have the techniques to properly translate the experience of what something really sounds like into an image or formula that can be pasted into a jpg and conferred to others. We can get pretty close...and we can glean some useful information..but in the end, what do we always do? Once we're done measuring and calculating and fussing with charts, we plug the thing in and see what it sounds like.

For instance, if I have one pair of speakers where I play a recording that has recorded bird song...and on the first pair of speakers that sound comes pretty much only from the front and lies kinda flat against the wall, but then I try a second set and the bird song pops out all over the room in various locations, what do I set my o-scope to so that I can see what causes that, or share that with others?

Don't get me wrong, I think measurements and scientific study and information is immensely valuable, I just think sometimes we skew that value a little farther out of proportion with the real goal, which is a pleasant listening experience....which is all so subjective ...some of you are now thinking "That's why I like FCUFS!" and others are like "That's why I like surround sound!" and still others are like "That's why I like my FPB-600s and Wilson X1s!"

Sometimes, when asked why someone prefers something, there's just no chart that can be reached for.
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