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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers
The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:28 PM   #1861
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
That is not the perception I get. Currently I have 3 speaker matrix all aimed directly to the ceiling.

I don't perceive sounds unnaturally elevated. Aiming to ceiling adds to spaciousness.
In comparison if speakers are aimed to the listener typically the image stays at the speakers.

I don't have any acoustic treatments in my room except normal furnituring, curtains, carpet, wall decorations, paintings etc.

You have to get rid of your front wall absorption ! That is the failure !


- Elias
It all depends on the specific reflection pattern. I found side and side-height reflections to be more valuable. I also try to keep D/R ratio high.

I was also talking about the Behringer not FRS8s.

Why do you think front wall absorption would be a factor with a ceiling firing speaker? Didn't you put a baffle close behind the speakers to prevent front wall reflections?
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:37 PM   #1862
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I've tried that but it's nothing you want to do because the ceiling reflection leads to coloration and adds not much to perceived spaciousnes. Worst case the ceiling reflection lifts certain sounds to an unnaturally high location.
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That is not the perception I get. Currently I have 3 speaker matrix all aimed directly to the ceiling.

I don't perceive sounds unnaturally elevated. Aiming to ceiling adds to spaciousness..
- Elias

I'm betting here that the difference is with respect to the angle of the driver, its dispersion pattern, diffraction, and very near reflections to the driver.

Again, it's not really about the reflection - it's about the direct sound/near reflection/diffraction.

Having a directive loudspeaker off-axis "pulls" the image in the direction of the higher pressure.

In the case of a "flooder" without a "reflector", it's all about the height of the loudspeaker off of the floor and relative to the listener. This creates the angle and the average off-axis response (vs. the driver's 0-degree axis).

The closer the driver is to the floor, generally the less the image is pulled vertically because there is less of a difference in pressure between the off-axis you are listening to and the driver's 0-degree axis. (..and it's highly dependent on the program material.)

Its also a pretty easy experiment to conduct (raise and lower the loudspeaker), and if you think it's a reflection you can always do what I did ("tack" a blanket up on the ceiling).

This of course does require a moderately directive loudspeaker (at higher freq.s), which is well suited to a full-range driver.
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Last edited by ScottG; 1st March 2013 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:46 PM   #1863
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Sorry, doesn't compute.
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:57 PM   #1864
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Sorry, doesn't compute.
Try it out with your fullrange drivers in relativly small boxes, with some sound absorption on the ceiling.

All drivers aimed upward at the ceiling, starting from the floor and moving up off of the floor in "increments". (The standard unit of measure in "increments" is a few books to obtain a level height for the loudspeaker. )
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:15 PM   #1865
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
It all depends on the specific reflection pattern. I found side and side-height reflections to be more valuable. I also try to keep D/R ratio high.

I was also talking about the Behringer not FRS8s.

Why do you think front wall absorption would be a factor with a ceiling firing speaker? Didn't you put a baffle close behind the speakers to prevent front wall reflections?

I also would like to increase D/R from pure flooder, but unfortunately I haven't found a good compromise yet. I have small CD horns too and conclusion so far is in flooder arrangement the speaker directivity should not be too high either.

By removing the front wall absorption you would have frontal reflections which would 'pull' the image back to ear level.


- Elias
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:27 PM   #1866
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Try it out with your fullrange drivers in relativly small boxes, with some sound absorption on the ceiling.

All drivers aimed upward at the ceiling, starting from the floor and moving up off of the floor in "increments". (The standard unit of measure in "increments" is a few books to obtain a level height for the loudspeaker. )
Why now moving the speaker? I thought we were talking about aiming the speaker?
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:35 PM   #1867
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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I also would like to increase D/R from pure flooder, but unfortunately I haven't found a good compromise yet. I have small CD horns too and conclusion so far is in flooder arrangement the speaker directivity should not be too high either.

By removing the front wall absorption you would have frontal reflections which would 'pull' the image back to ear level.


- Elias
I've tried but it makes matters even worse because a second order front wall reflection (front wall > ceiling) adds to the strength of the direct ceiling reflection, pulling everything upwards.
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:38 PM   #1868
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Why now moving the speaker? I thought we were talking about aiming the speaker?
Because the axis changes relative to the listener.

Again though, the assumption here is driver with directive higher freq. response and a listener in the same position at the same height.
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:43 PM   #1869
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Because the axis changes relative to the listener.

Again though, the assumption here is driver with directive higher freq. response and a listener in the same position at the same height.
You said "Having a directive loudspeaker off-axis "pulls" the image in the direction of the higher pressure.". Last time I checked human ears are mounted to the left and the right and not on top and bottom of our heads. There is no pressure difference between the ears when a speaker is tilted up or down.
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Old 1st March 2013, 08:52 PM   #1870
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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You said "Having a directive loudspeaker off-axis "pulls" the image in the direction of the higher pressure.". Last time I checked human ears are mounted to the left and the right and not on top and bottom of our heads. There is no pressure difference between the ears when a speaker is tilted up or down.
But you still process for a variety of vertical axis's. Confidence level isn't as good, but it's still there.


On a completely unrelated note.. I seem to be having some website "stalling" on my end with the forum today..
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Last edited by ScottG; 1st March 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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