Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Test & Assembly
I think it need to go in the new thread because there are as many opinions as woodworkers out there.
Anyhow. I approach a speaker as a cabinet job and essentially a speaker cabinet is relatively simple cabinet.
My prefer joinery is 45miter with spline or without. I precut panels an inch oversize and then veneer then in the vacuum press. After the veneering is done, panels are mitered, cut to size and glued. There's no exposed edge of MDF with this type of a join. It gives you very nice clean 90 degree corner.
Of cause, there's also bracing, driver holes and solid ¾ round over on the face. Bracing is dadoed in before the cabinet assembled and driver hole are cut in last. I cut driver holes with spiral down cutting solid carbide bit and there's no tearout.
sploo said:
Yea, I wasn't very clear with my choice of language - by box I meant baffle (don't read what I write, read what I was thinking).
I was going to mention Linkwitz's Orion design, but it's already been posted. I've seen a few box designs (the Orion is open baffle for those that don't know) using an arm inside the box to hold the driver by the magnet. As Salas has noted - a removable rear panel is usually required.
I did see a design where there was a long bolt in the bottom of the box, which tightened a clamp inside the box, so the driver could be slipped onto the baffle, then secured externally.
I'm pretty certain the original guy I mentioned was using a very deep flange rebate (with lots of padding) then long bolts through the driver, and a stack of foam/rubber washers on the inside. I presume this would need rear access to get right, but as long as the holes in the baffles for the bolts were large enough to stop the bolts contacting the baffle, I'd guess it would work well.
Just starting my butt kicking machine now...
Lucky guy. I use my back garden (yard) like Ant (ShinOBIWAN). The number of good spraying days here in the UK are somewhat limited!
As you're veneering before construction; do you apply extra veneer on the edges once the box is finished, or do you leave them uncovered?
I've used real wood veneers - very nice quality, but they can be a pig to cut and route without splitting and chipping. Some pics and info here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108069&highlight=
I think it need to go in the new thread because there are as many opinions as woodworkers out there.
Anyhow. I approach a speaker as a cabinet job and essentially a speaker cabinet is relatively simple cabinet.
My prefer joinery is 45miter with spline or without. I precut panels an inch oversize and then veneer then in the vacuum press. After the veneering is done, panels are mitered, cut to size and glued. There's no exposed edge of MDF with this type of a join. It gives you very nice clean 90 degree corner.
Of cause, there's also bracing, driver holes and solid ¾ round over on the face. Bracing is dadoed in before the cabinet assembled and driver hole are cut in last. I cut driver holes with spiral down cutting solid carbide bit and there's no tearout.
Some non-glamour, then a problem
Here's an ugly shot for you. When the sun hits the baffles just right, they look awful:
Luckily this is only a few minutes a day, but still. I show you this partly to scare the younger children back on to the straight and narrow, but also in case there is an excess of perfection elsewhere in this forum that needs balancing. Note the excess glue, clamp marks, and other deformities.
Keeping with the ruthless honesty typical of this thread (or am I just too lazy to edit), I show you my latest problem. While moving the speakers for housecleaning today, I found this flagrant error:
The port has come undone on one of the speakers
Although it didn't look like there was any internal cause, I did go in through the woofer hole to see if there were any problems inside.
I didn't find any internal issues, but doesn't she have the cutest dimples? At least it's clear I got the woofer seal correct.
This time, instead of foam to press in the port, I went with hard cold STEEL.
This little bowl is just the right size to press in evenly and hard.
I masked off the wood to keep as much of the silicone off it as I could. (As usual, you'll see that I missed a few spots. I believe not only that the best is the enemy of the good, but that the adequate is the arch-rival of the borderline incompetent.)
I flooded the gap with silicone sealer, and pressed it flush, which of course pushed out the generous excess.
With the excess wiped, I set it on it's back to dry overnight.
I'd like to say that I thought I noticed a de-lifting of veils, or a PRAT-falloff, or least a reduction in bass from the left speaker (it of course was the left, my scapegoat), but in fact I did not notice any problem with the port until I felt it with my hand.
By the way, DavidLR is going to check out the speakers on Saturday, and we'll be posting our separate opinions after he has a chance to form an opinion with a minimum of prejudice from me. We listen to completely opposite styles of music, so I'm hopeful this will prove useful to someone out there interested in building these speakers.
Here's an ugly shot for you. When the sun hits the baffles just right, they look awful:
Luckily this is only a few minutes a day, but still. I show you this partly to scare the younger children back on to the straight and narrow, but also in case there is an excess of perfection elsewhere in this forum that needs balancing. Note the excess glue, clamp marks, and other deformities.
Keeping with the ruthless honesty typical of this thread (or am I just too lazy to edit), I show you my latest problem. While moving the speakers for housecleaning today, I found this flagrant error:
The port has come undone on one of the speakers
Although it didn't look like there was any internal cause, I did go in through the woofer hole to see if there were any problems inside.
I didn't find any internal issues, but doesn't she have the cutest dimples? At least it's clear I got the woofer seal correct.
This time, instead of foam to press in the port, I went with hard cold STEEL.
This little bowl is just the right size to press in evenly and hard.
I masked off the wood to keep as much of the silicone off it as I could. (As usual, you'll see that I missed a few spots. I believe not only that the best is the enemy of the good, but that the adequate is the arch-rival of the borderline incompetent.)
I flooded the gap with silicone sealer, and pressed it flush, which of course pushed out the generous excess.
With the excess wiped, I set it on it's back to dry overnight.
I'd like to say that I thought I noticed a de-lifting of veils, or a PRAT-falloff, or least a reduction in bass from the left speaker (it of course was the left, my scapegoat), but in fact I did not notice any problem with the port until I felt it with my hand.
By the way, DavidLR is going to check out the speakers on Saturday, and we'll be posting our separate opinions after he has a chance to form an opinion with a minimum of prejudice from me. We listen to completely opposite styles of music, so I'm hopeful this will prove useful to someone out there interested in building these speakers.
Stew, the best way to tape the port or anything else is to overlap the tape and the trim it with very sharp utility knife.
If the port is under any kind of internal pressure, silicon will not hold it. If I may suggest, catch the port with 4 decorative screws. This way, you will have a good mechanical bond.
Are marks on the front baffle appear to be under clear coat or surface scratches?
If the port is under any kind of internal pressure, silicon will not hold it. If I may suggest, catch the port with 4 decorative screws. This way, you will have a good mechanical bond.
Are marks on the front baffle appear to be under clear coat or surface scratches?
I will screw the ports in
I have considered screwing the ports in, I just didn't want to make any more of a mess, plus I thought it might look bad. The ports shouldn't be under any internal load besides gravity, although gravity might well be enough. I think you're right though, and I'll try to get the ports screwed on today.
The front baffle marks are mostly over the clear coat, but there are also lumps from missed dribblets of glue I failed to sand flat enough. I could fix some of them with another few coats of paint/gloss, I'm sure, but really it is not visible or objectionable 98% of the time - and least not to me, and I'm the guy who looks at them.
I will do better next time.
R-Carpenter said:
I have considered screwing the ports in, I just didn't want to make any more of a mess, plus I thought it might look bad. The ports shouldn't be under any internal load besides gravity, although gravity might well be enough. I think you're right though, and I'll try to get the ports screwed on today.
The front baffle marks are mostly over the clear coat, but there are also lumps from missed dribblets of glue I failed to sand flat enough. I could fix some of them with another few coats of paint/gloss, I'm sure, but really it is not visible or objectionable 98% of the time - and least not to me, and I'm the guy who looks at them.
I will do better next time.
Member
Joined 2003
I've never felt the need to screw in the ports. I've found hot glue, epoxy, or even wood glue make a real good bond. Maybe the silicone wasn't completely dry when you stood the speakers upright?
Those look like a great pair of speakers Stew, makes me really want to finish my speakers, which I can finally do now that the weather has become nice enough to work in the garage. When time permits...Your woodworking skills are obviously very good, and with these you will consistently create beautiful speakers.
From the looks of it you needed to sand the baffles a little better before painting (perhaps put some scraps of wood under the clamps...), and maybe a second coat of paint. It's not a disaster though, very fixable, will just take some extra time and effort.
Those look like a great pair of speakers Stew, makes me really want to finish my speakers, which I can finally do now that the weather has become nice enough to work in the garage. When time permits...Your woodworking skills are obviously very good, and with these you will consistently create beautiful speakers.
From the looks of it you needed to sand the baffles a little better before painting (perhaps put some scraps of wood under the clamps...), and maybe a second coat of paint. It's not a disaster though, very fixable, will just take some extra time and effort.
Ha ha. This hobby is truly addictive. “I am sure I'll do better next time”
I am just not big fan of silicone adhesives. My dislike also comes from working on site and knowing how easily silicone can damage finish. Like anything else it has it's purpose.
I think screw look fine. They also add a mechanical bond, so if there was some stress cause by lite green man, archangel Gabriel or an unknown force of nature, it is gone and irrelevant now. It's not like you are going to stand behind the speaker all the time and admire the ports.
I should have mentioned it before but sometimes glue spots are hard to see on the light veneer, like birch or even on the painted surface. It helps to wipe with rag, moisten in denaturated alcohol or just water. Shows you the glue spots.
Nice job anyway, and like you said, it'll be better next time.
So what you have in mind?
I am just not big fan of silicone adhesives. My dislike also comes from working on site and knowing how easily silicone can damage finish. Like anything else it has it's purpose.
I think screw look fine. They also add a mechanical bond, so if there was some stress cause by lite green man, archangel Gabriel or an unknown force of nature, it is gone and irrelevant now. It's not like you are going to stand behind the speaker all the time and admire the ports.
I should have mentioned it before but sometimes glue spots are hard to see on the light veneer, like birch or even on the painted surface. It helps to wipe with rag, moisten in denaturated alcohol or just water. Shows you the glue spots.
Nice job anyway, and like you said, it'll be better next time.
So what you have in mind?
Impressions coming soon
The audition session is over. David brought his Shamrock SE2s over so he could compare what he's used to vs. the Zaph SR-71s.
I'm going to post my impressions after David posts his, but he may not get to it today.
The Zaph SR-71s are in the middle, the Shamrock SE2s on the outside, and a pair of Onkyo HTIB MTMs are on the floor.
The audition session is over. David brought his Shamrock SE2s over so he could compare what he's used to vs. the Zaph SR-71s.
I'm going to post my impressions after David posts his, but he may not get to it today.
The Zaph SR-71s are in the middle, the Shamrock SE2s on the outside, and a pair of Onkyo HTIB MTMs are on the floor.
Zaph SR-71 Audition
First of all let me say thanks to Stew for opening up his house to a total stranger, allowing me to bring my speakers & music for comparison. Very interesting session for both of us I think. We listened to all kinds of music-classical, jazz, techno, rock, etc. Worked both sets of speakers pretty hard. Stew is one bright & very technically adept guy. He has a centralized computer based music system accessible throughout the house, running off a server in the basement where the storage capacity is measured in TERABYTES !! Wasn't that long ago that gigabyte HD's were the measure of big.
Anyway, listening impressions. Bear in mind, I'm just an average DIY guy, don't have real vast experience with different sets of speakers.
Just so you know what the SR's are compared to-my speakers are an MTM arrangement using 6.5" Vifa PW17J woofers and the Vifa D27TG45-06 tweeters. I built the speakers about 5 years ago. From what I understand, these drivers were very popular & well represented in many DIY designs over the years, but, they are also getting long in the tooth , don't think the D27 is even made anymore.
The main thing that struck me was how close in sound the two speakers were. There were differences, to be sure, but not night & day. The SR-71s I think, are more accurate speakers. The bass was tighter, more controlled, not as pronounced but definitely there. There was one recording where a kick drum was sort of there in the back ground but very real. I thought it was a car or something outside. Stew cued up that passage again for closer comparison, I have to say the SR71's went deeper with more impact. By comparison, the bass in my speakers is warmer, boomier, probably colors the music more, is less controlled, but they still do sound pretty good. Which is better ?? Depends on personal preference, room, the music being played. There was more clarity, detail & perhaps a more pronounced mid-range on the SR-71s. Again, though, the differences are more incremental than anything. There were times when both of us forgot exactly which speaker was playing at a given moment.
Tweeters- my biggest complaint with my speakers is the harsh, screeching sound of the string sections in an orchestral piece at full volume, so I was very interested to see how the SR71s did in this respect. I have to say the sound was still too harsh, to bright for my ears, BUT, not as much as on my speakers. Also played some pipe organ music which can sound harsh on mine, again, still too strident for me on the SR71s but clearly better. I'm probably just supersensitive to high frequencies, I may be asking dome tweeters to do something they can't do. Ribbon tweeters are sweeter, eh ??
What else-I do think the SR71's had a better soundstage, my speakers sounded more like two individual units whereas the SR71s
had a more cohesive unified sound. The overall tonal balance was better on the SR71's, less pronounced bass, more mid-range detail, a little sweeter highs, female voices were definitely more true sounding on the SR71s.
For those looking to build a reasonably priced, well engineered set of speakers, I don't think you will be disappointed with the sound of these. Especially if this is your first foray into DIY speaker building. These speakers are compact in size also, with a big sound. Very nice. Thanks to Mr. Krutke for all the good research & making the design available. Now if I can just find a place to hear the ZDT3 !
Hope my comments are helpful. First time I've ever reviewed ANYTHING, much less write about, much less put it on the internet for the whole world to see. Thanks again, Stew, for your hospitality. I do appreciate it.
Dave
First of all let me say thanks to Stew for opening up his house to a total stranger, allowing me to bring my speakers & music for comparison. Very interesting session for both of us I think. We listened to all kinds of music-classical, jazz, techno, rock, etc. Worked both sets of speakers pretty hard. Stew is one bright & very technically adept guy. He has a centralized computer based music system accessible throughout the house, running off a server in the basement where the storage capacity is measured in TERABYTES !! Wasn't that long ago that gigabyte HD's were the measure of big.
Anyway, listening impressions. Bear in mind, I'm just an average DIY guy, don't have real vast experience with different sets of speakers.
Just so you know what the SR's are compared to-my speakers are an MTM arrangement using 6.5" Vifa PW17J woofers and the Vifa D27TG45-06 tweeters. I built the speakers about 5 years ago. From what I understand, these drivers were very popular & well represented in many DIY designs over the years, but, they are also getting long in the tooth , don't think the D27 is even made anymore.
The main thing that struck me was how close in sound the two speakers were. There were differences, to be sure, but not night & day. The SR-71s I think, are more accurate speakers. The bass was tighter, more controlled, not as pronounced but definitely there. There was one recording where a kick drum was sort of there in the back ground but very real. I thought it was a car or something outside. Stew cued up that passage again for closer comparison, I have to say the SR71's went deeper with more impact. By comparison, the bass in my speakers is warmer, boomier, probably colors the music more, is less controlled, but they still do sound pretty good. Which is better ?? Depends on personal preference, room, the music being played. There was more clarity, detail & perhaps a more pronounced mid-range on the SR-71s. Again, though, the differences are more incremental than anything. There were times when both of us forgot exactly which speaker was playing at a given moment.
Tweeters- my biggest complaint with my speakers is the harsh, screeching sound of the string sections in an orchestral piece at full volume, so I was very interested to see how the SR71s did in this respect. I have to say the sound was still too harsh, to bright for my ears, BUT, not as much as on my speakers. Also played some pipe organ music which can sound harsh on mine, again, still too strident for me on the SR71s but clearly better. I'm probably just supersensitive to high frequencies, I may be asking dome tweeters to do something they can't do. Ribbon tweeters are sweeter, eh ??
What else-I do think the SR71's had a better soundstage, my speakers sounded more like two individual units whereas the SR71s
had a more cohesive unified sound. The overall tonal balance was better on the SR71's, less pronounced bass, more mid-range detail, a little sweeter highs, female voices were definitely more true sounding on the SR71s.
For those looking to build a reasonably priced, well engineered set of speakers, I don't think you will be disappointed with the sound of these. Especially if this is your first foray into DIY speaker building. These speakers are compact in size also, with a big sound. Very nice. Thanks to Mr. Krutke for all the good research & making the design available. Now if I can just find a place to hear the ZDT3 !
Hope my comments are helpful. First time I've ever reviewed ANYTHING, much less write about, much less put it on the internet for the whole world to see. Thanks again, Stew, for your hospitality. I do appreciate it.
Dave
Thanks ! Been to the KC area once in my life, so not likely, but who knows !! I attracted to the ZDt3 design for a few of reasons- 1) it's a floorstanding model that doesn't take up much room, don't have to worry about stands, 2) according to Zaph (if I remember right, since the design is temporarily unavailable) he said it had a very smooth sound, especially in comparison to an MTM design (mine) and 3) sort a unique design-not a two-way, not an MTM, & 4) also has room to incorporate a sub in the base of the cab.
Any further comments on the sound quality as you have lived with it for a while now ??
Any further comments on the sound quality as you have lived with it for a while now ??
Finally I actually say something
Ever since I built the SR-71s I've been listening to them 4-5 hours a day, in the same room with them, in the listening position shown in the photos above while I work on my laptop. I've been listening at various volume levels, but often fairly loud (75-85 db). They are very good speakers, certainly the tightest and most accurate I've owned. I'm glad I built them, and I'm grateful to John Krutke for designing them and taking the time to document and share them.
I had multiple "I've never heard that before" experiences with these speakers. Several of them were listening to Menomena's album Friend and Foe. Track 3, Wet and Rusting, became my benchmark track for AB comparisons and close listening. It varies fairly widely in dynamics, has a lot of separate acoustic instruments, pleasant male vocal harmonization, and a number of fairly subtle studio tricks that work quite well at high volumes, as well a loud and rocking closing section. There's a soft but deep kick drum that comes in at about the one minute mark that David wrote about above, something that was utterly lost in the mud on my 2.1 Klipsch ProMedia setup, and which I'm not sure I'd ever heard before - definitely not as clearly. On the same album I realized a particular piano section was actually a *toy* piano. These minor revelations were all very fun, and I kept hunting through my library for more of them.
After a week of listening, I was delighted with the speakers I'd built, but I knew I had to be fair. I played the Menomena track mentioned above on the SR-71s, then played brown noise to get a level reading. I swapped the SR-71s off the stands for the Onkyo HTIB MTM speakers, then matched the level with brown noise again before playing the track again. I was disappointed - these weren't too bad at all! Yes, bass was more murky and less distinct, maybe the treble was off a hair or two. But really not too bad - especially when you consider these cost me perhaps $150 retail and I'm told retail speakers like the SR-71s might cost $1800.
But I also know that I've never wanted to listen at high volumes for long to the Onkyo speakers, and that I found listening to music on them wearing. I can't say that I really know exactly WHY I found music wearing, but I definitely wanted to turn them down (or even off) after an album at moderate volumes. Having read more about speaker technology now that I care to admit, I can guess that it might be that the Onkyo speakers have more distortion at higher levels, but until I actually measure them that would just be a layman's wild guess.
So it didn't surprise me when David's Shamrock SE2s were quite good too. The main clear difference was the difference in the bass response. David's speakers definitely put out more bass. I thought SR-71s had less bass, but that what bass they did have was very precise and defined, more so than the SE2s. David thought he could detect differences in the tweeters, but I don't have the confidence to say I'm sure there was an important difference. Meaning, I thought I might be able to detect some of the differences in the high end that he talks about above, but I have to wonder if they would have been perceptible if the speakers shared a more similar bass response. There was one organ passage, for example, where we toggled rapidly back and forth between both sets, and the hand off was nearly seamless - they sounded very much the same for this section of the movement.
My listening is also not nearly as challenging as David's - I listen to popular music that was produced on and made for loudspeakers, while he listens to a lot of classical where the benchmark is a live performance. It is much tougher to reproduce a string section than one of the 100% synthetic bass whomps that make me so happy.
Which reminds me, the sensitivity of the speakers was fortuitously very similar - when I measured them (brown noise at 75 db, C weighted, fast response - was this a valid measurement, audio gods?), they were within 0.5 Db of each other, which I hope is close enough to judge them without being unduly influenced into thinking the louder is better. (We had both sets of speakers on hooked to the receiver at the same time, and we AB'd using the A and B buttons on the receiver.)
David and I were both hoping for a quantum leap in speaker technology over the past five years, and were a little disappointed that there was not. It just makes me have even more admiration for the designers here who are doggedly advancing incremental improvements, year after year.
I again want to thank John Krutke for the design, but also everyone here who took the time to answer my tyro woodworking questions, and who said such nice things about my sloppy craftsmanship. I would not have even attempted this project if forums like this one did not exist.
Ever since I built the SR-71s I've been listening to them 4-5 hours a day, in the same room with them, in the listening position shown in the photos above while I work on my laptop. I've been listening at various volume levels, but often fairly loud (75-85 db). They are very good speakers, certainly the tightest and most accurate I've owned. I'm glad I built them, and I'm grateful to John Krutke for designing them and taking the time to document and share them.
I had multiple "I've never heard that before" experiences with these speakers. Several of them were listening to Menomena's album Friend and Foe. Track 3, Wet and Rusting, became my benchmark track for AB comparisons and close listening. It varies fairly widely in dynamics, has a lot of separate acoustic instruments, pleasant male vocal harmonization, and a number of fairly subtle studio tricks that work quite well at high volumes, as well a loud and rocking closing section. There's a soft but deep kick drum that comes in at about the one minute mark that David wrote about above, something that was utterly lost in the mud on my 2.1 Klipsch ProMedia setup, and which I'm not sure I'd ever heard before - definitely not as clearly. On the same album I realized a particular piano section was actually a *toy* piano. These minor revelations were all very fun, and I kept hunting through my library for more of them.
After a week of listening, I was delighted with the speakers I'd built, but I knew I had to be fair. I played the Menomena track mentioned above on the SR-71s, then played brown noise to get a level reading. I swapped the SR-71s off the stands for the Onkyo HTIB MTM speakers, then matched the level with brown noise again before playing the track again. I was disappointed - these weren't too bad at all! Yes, bass was more murky and less distinct, maybe the treble was off a hair or two. But really not too bad - especially when you consider these cost me perhaps $150 retail and I'm told retail speakers like the SR-71s might cost $1800.
But I also know that I've never wanted to listen at high volumes for long to the Onkyo speakers, and that I found listening to music on them wearing. I can't say that I really know exactly WHY I found music wearing, but I definitely wanted to turn them down (or even off) after an album at moderate volumes. Having read more about speaker technology now that I care to admit, I can guess that it might be that the Onkyo speakers have more distortion at higher levels, but until I actually measure them that would just be a layman's wild guess.
So it didn't surprise me when David's Shamrock SE2s were quite good too. The main clear difference was the difference in the bass response. David's speakers definitely put out more bass. I thought SR-71s had less bass, but that what bass they did have was very precise and defined, more so than the SE2s. David thought he could detect differences in the tweeters, but I don't have the confidence to say I'm sure there was an important difference. Meaning, I thought I might be able to detect some of the differences in the high end that he talks about above, but I have to wonder if they would have been perceptible if the speakers shared a more similar bass response. There was one organ passage, for example, where we toggled rapidly back and forth between both sets, and the hand off was nearly seamless - they sounded very much the same for this section of the movement.
My listening is also not nearly as challenging as David's - I listen to popular music that was produced on and made for loudspeakers, while he listens to a lot of classical where the benchmark is a live performance. It is much tougher to reproduce a string section than one of the 100% synthetic bass whomps that make me so happy.
Which reminds me, the sensitivity of the speakers was fortuitously very similar - when I measured them (brown noise at 75 db, C weighted, fast response - was this a valid measurement, audio gods?), they were within 0.5 Db of each other, which I hope is close enough to judge them without being unduly influenced into thinking the louder is better. (We had both sets of speakers on hooked to the receiver at the same time, and we AB'd using the A and B buttons on the receiver.)
David and I were both hoping for a quantum leap in speaker technology over the past five years, and were a little disappointed that there was not. It just makes me have even more admiration for the designers here who are doggedly advancing incremental improvements, year after year.
I again want to thank John Krutke for the design, but also everyone here who took the time to answer my tyro woodworking questions, and who said such nice things about my sloppy craftsmanship. I would not have even attempted this project if forums like this one did not exist.
I don't want to get Stew's thread off topic with the ZDT3, so later today (hopefully) I'll email you. I also have a thread on HTGuide about them.DavidLR said:
As for Stew's last post, I can attest to many of the "I've never heard that before" moments. It is amazing that you can listen to music you've had and listened to for 20+ years and you change only one thing, and you hear it differently than you ever have. I've made the comment to my wife that so most people don't know what they are missing in their music. It is all there, you just have to hunt for it and bring it out with good equipment.
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