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Old 26th March 2008, 08:58 PM   #11
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Can you post the link to the JBL document?
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Old 27th March 2008, 03:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by GM
Not AFAIK, folks pay a 'pretty penny' to become THX certified and try to earn a living off the knowledge,
I thought as much, but I'd hoped you may have known if some info had snuck out and was posted somewhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by GM
but if we look at a cinema's requirements we can 'backdoor' it close enough IMO and not surprisingly it boils down to having controlled directivity/~flat power response to suit the seating distance/layout in our acute hearing BW and sufficient dynamic headroom to keep distortion low just like for a multi-channel cinema, so for a typical HT some form of waveguide or CD horn is required/channel combined with 6 - 8 dB of dynamic headroom.
Sounds like what I'm working towards in most of the details. I'm basing a lot of my design ideas around Jack Bouska's speakers and the Drew Daniel's cinema design, with my own twists of course. Now if I could only get those 4 BMS 18N840 v2's I need.....
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Originally posted by GM
The room obviously is a big part of a sound system, expecially for a multi-channel one, so dialing in the desirable RT60 seems a 'no-brainer'. JBL's cinema design manual has a nomograph and if your room is < 1 k ft^3, then it ideally needs to be able to do double duty as a ~aneochoic chamber.

GM
The room here isn't the best, but my porcelain library book for the last few weeks has been Alton Everest so I have several ideas about how to work around that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Olson
Can you post the link to the JBL document?
I'd like to see that too. I checked the Tech Library on jblpro.com and didn't see it, but it's 0230 and I shouldn't be awake now so I may have missed the obvious.
I logged on hoping the 'Do all amps sound the same' thread might act as a soporific.
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Old 27th March 2008, 04:13 PM   #13
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Dr. Geddes and his wife did a study on home theaters and levels. I think they found that typically HT users were running at 120db c-weighted. So speakers needed to be capable of that.

Now what I don't know is whether that was at 1-meter or other. I am assuming that is on peaks. I also don't know if that is mains or LFE but it seemed to imply mains.
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Old 27th March 2008, 04:30 PM   #14
GM is offline GM  United States
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I wonder why it is that virtually every time I leave it for someone to do a little 'due diligence' (Googling) I seem to be the only successful one?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...al&btnG=Search

Or in this case, using JBL's search feature: http://www.google.com/custom?q=cinem...www.jblpro.com

Pg. 11, fig. 11

FWIW, being a chronic insomniac I'm always on the lookout for a web based 'soporific' in the wee hours and this one knocked me right out: :: The Problem With Hi Fidelity ::

GM
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Old 27th March 2008, 04:45 PM   #15
GM is offline GM  United States
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Hmm, I can't help but wonder whose HTs the good doctors measured since few consumer HT speakers are capable of these implied SPLs at low distortion. It's a well proven fact though that as distortion levels drop, folks will tend to listen at higher average/peak SPLs........

For instance, back when I had a pretty much 'full tilt boogie' wide BW stereo system most folks would be intimidated by their sheer size and its high SPL/my apparent 'deafness' connotation, so I quickly learned to always let them set the volume and at some point they would turn to me to comment on something only to find it was so loud they couldn't hear themselves. Indeed, I was initially surprised that young women tended to set it higher than I was comfortable with and why I was stunned to find that WAF/SAF/SWMBO/whatever held such sway WRT speaker size/low in-room sound level when I joined the audio 'net in '96.

GM
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Old 27th March 2008, 05:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by GM
I wonder why it is that virtually every time I leave it for someone to do a little 'due diligence' (Googling) I seem to be the only successful one?
LOL. Thanks. I did look before, honest! When I got up again after a 15 min 'nap' I scrolled down the page I was on before and found it. I'm surprised I didn't have it either as I seem to have downloaded the entire site over the years as there's a wealth of great info on it.

Quote:
Originally posted by GM
FWIW, being a chronic insomniac I'm always on the lookout for a web based 'soporific' in the wee hours and this one knocked me right out: :: The Problem With Hi Fidelity ::

GM
That on has had me amused too. Some good points in both threads, but a poor S/N ratio.
I get to go on a field trip for work today so I know as soon as I'm on the seat in the (special) bus, I'll be asleep.
Quote:
Originally posted by GM
Hmm, I can't help but wonder whose HTs the good doctors measured since few consumer HT speakers are capable of these implied SPLs at low distortion. It's a well proven fact though that as distortion levels drop, folks will tend to listen at higher average/peak SPLs........
True. Most I've ever experienced do 'modest' OK, then go to hell as the levels go up a small amount

Quote:
Originally posted by GM
For instance, back when I had a pretty much 'full tilt boogie' wide BW stereo system most folks would be intimidated by their sheer size and its high SPL/my apparent 'deafness' connotation, so I quickly learned to always let them set the volume and at some point they would turn to me to comment on something only to find it was so loud they couldn't hear themselves. Indeed, I was initially surprised that young women tended to set it higher than I was comfortable with and why I was stunned to find that WAF/SAF/SWMBO/whatever held such sway WRT speaker size/low in-room sound level when I joined the audio 'net in '96.

GM
When I had my big horn system (corner loaded LABsubs, hyppex midbass and trax's from there up) with lots of power, I had a guy come over wanting to see what my 'crazy' system was about. He set the level and after watching most of a BUS (blow up stuff) action movie, I pulled out the ratshack SPL meter and it was banging the stop constantly on the top range. Both our ears rang for ages. I'm quite sensitive to distortion and dynamic compression after having that rig. Typical phile 6" 2ways sound like headphones now, hence the desire for a large high capacity ssytem again.

The SPL meter mentioned before was kept in the rmote box on the coffee table as I found out how easy it was to listen very loud with that system and checked myself with it often. It also kept the neighbours happy most of the time as I'd come to an agreement with them about day and night SPLs at the property boundaries, then measured inside the house, and tried never to exceed them.

I'm looking for something with that sort of capability now, but DR not horn except >1kHz or so. It's gonna be big and full of pro drivers. I seldom do loud now, but the lack of compression and the ability to sound basically the same at low and very high levels makes it very easy to relax and listen/watch, at least for me.

Lots of reading to do tonight.
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Old 28th March 2008, 06:07 AM   #17
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GM.

Thanks for the link! My brain has been fried lately so I wasn't even sure what to search for.

That 120dB must be peak LFE at 1m unless they limited their sample to pro stuff. Even most 'commercial' subs will have trouble putting out that much. The one's I'm building run out of steam at 118dB/1m unless they are overdriven a bit.

Moreover, from ancedotal evedence, most people listen about 10 dB below reference so something doesn't smell right with that data.

I think the best test of speaker transparency, subjectively speaking, is whether it can fool you or not. Perhaps I'm getting too old but my decade old Snell LCR's do this on a regular basis.

I remember during one movie I heard some scratching and growling in the corner of the theater and thought a cougar may have snuck in an open door or something. I paniced enough that I went turn on the lights and grab my 45. Of course when I hit the lights there was nothing there. The wife and I both had a laugh over that.

Doorbells, door knocks, phones and voices are other things that make me head for the lights. The funny thing is that we don't even have a doorbell!
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Old 28th March 2008, 11:10 PM   #18
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Olson

GM,

Thanks........

The speakers I am designing should have wide directionality so I've got that going for me!
You're welcome!

Hmm, wide directionality is exactly what you don't want in a proper multi-channel HT unless it's a small screen with the close limited seating this implies.

GM
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Old 29th March 2008, 12:07 AM   #19
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Olson

Thanks for the link!

Even most 'commercial' subs will have trouble putting out that much.

Moreover, from ancedotal evedence, most people listen about 10 dB below reference so something doesn't smell right with that data.

.......but my decade old Snell LCR's..........

Doorbells.........The funny thing is that we don't even have a doorbell!
You're welcome!

Yep, few consumer speakers or subs can do DD/DTS reference, even some that claim such.

Yeah, again, folks tend to set the volume based on audible distortion, so with most speaker systems it's lower than reference.

Right, Snell is one of the few brands worthy of recommendation.

Yeah, my stereo corner loaded horns do the surround sound trick on well recorded soundtracks too even though horns can't image and corners destroy a speaker's imaging/sound-staging, or so the 'audio ignorati' claim.

GM
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Old 29th March 2008, 12:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by GM
Yeah, my stereo corner loaded horns do the surround sound trick on well recorded soundtracks too even though horns can't image and corners destroy a speaker's imaging/sound-staging, or so the 'audio ignorati' claim.

GM
Before I built my big horns, I had some KHorns with ALK xovers. These were the speakers my poodle consistently went looking for the source of sounds with, usually movement noises in movies. He's rarely done it with others, but to nowhere near the consistency of the KHorns.
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