this is a photo to give you an idea, they are 90cm tall, the design was for any 8" fostex driver... i put a super8 audionirvana. it was working very bad, shy bass, and muddy everything...
then i removed the bottom, let it opened, and now the perform pretty well, i think down to 35hz with some corner loading.
any probabily a BSC is still needed, i don't think the AN are easy to accomodate in harshness... wrong choice for the t-amp i put them on.
btw. i don't think i'm gonna work on them anymore: spiralhorn surely works, and probably it's a clever design for small drivers (or even the 166). acoustic bass really is articulated and present...
but on some rock tracks they work so bad, that i think i'll take the two drivers on a simple OB and build a good sub below 80hz...
goodlook. what driver where you thinking to use?
then i removed the bottom, let it opened, and now the perform pretty well, i think down to 35hz with some corner loading.
any probabily a BSC is still needed, i don't think the AN are easy to accomodate in harshness... wrong choice for the t-amp i put them on.
btw. i don't think i'm gonna work on them anymore: spiralhorn surely works, and probably it's a clever design for small drivers (or even the 166). acoustic bass really is articulated and present...
but on some rock tracks they work so bad, that i think i'll take the two drivers on a simple OB and build a good sub below 80hz...
goodlook. what driver where you thinking to use?
Attachments
it's night here, and i just got home. but hey! i'm not that drunk to write such an english and post photos viceversa... i apologize
here is a photo of the bottom, have anyone any advice to give? what kind of loading should it be? considering it's firing directly on the floor? something like the BIB?
should i close them and tricl the firing ports size? to match what parameter of the AN driver? twin 3,5mm ports where in design for the fostex 206
here is a photo of the bottom, have anyone any advice to give? what kind of loading should it be? considering it's firing directly on the floor? something like the BIB?
should i close them and tricl the firing ports size? to match what parameter of the AN driver? twin 3,5mm ports where in design for the fostex 206
Attachments
Thanks for your reply and the additional information. I have a Visaton B200 driver. I like the idea of getting some decent bass out of a smaller cabinet, aka spiral horn, but I listen to rock too, among other styles. Maasaki suggested I try a multi flare type, analogous to HMF160a and stay with a 30mm port.
B200 is very much suited to OB. Might be the way to go after all. This is the 'OB' design that interests me http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115835&highlight= But that means adding another driver and getting into crossovers
B200 is very much suited to OB. Might be the way to go after all. This is the 'OB' design that interests me http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115835&highlight= But that means adding another driver and getting into crossovers
possibly it's good for me too to a ask mr Maasaki's advice
have you already tried a quarterwave ala Martin King??
thinking of OB my idea is by now leave the drivers alone on simple, possibly norrow baffle with a bit of correction and then put in one or two subs...
while going with a pair of alphas or goldwood would'nt cost much i think it's gonna lost some punch... anyway i think i'll be asking soon around this, possibly a new story, and possibly new drivers too (but i must say for being my first project, the AN super 8 really made me happy at first: don't know why i didn't consider the cast frame version!)
have you already tried a quarterwave ala Martin King??
thinking of OB my idea is by now leave the drivers alone on simple, possibly norrow baffle with a bit of correction and then put in one or two subs...
while going with a pair of alphas or goldwood would'nt cost much i think it's gonna lost some punch... anyway i think i'll be asking soon around this, possibly a new story, and possibly new drivers too
(but i must say for being my first project, the AN super 8 really made me happy at first: don't know why i didn't consider the cast frame version!)
Re: My Helix AG280z Angular Speaker
Hello. I have an Audio Nirvana Super 8 in Helix AG 280z Angular speaker. The sound is holographic, detailed and has a deep bass.
Please listen via You Tube, using your quality headphone to have some idea how it sounds. Sorry for the very simple audio room and cabinet aesthetic.
Here is the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHpq11mu2s
Thanks for viewing.
Hello. I have an Audio Nirvana Super 8 in Helix AG 280z Angular speaker. The sound is holographic, detailed and has a deep bass.
Please listen via You Tube, using your quality headphone to have some idea how it sounds. Sorry for the very simple audio room and cabinet aesthetic.
Here is the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHpq11mu2s
Thanks for viewing.
Hello forum mate. I am planning to make a Helix AG 250z speaker cabinet. I am happy that you made already. However, I think you missed the bottom that it should be a 50 x 160/100mm square instead of hole. Please do correct me, if I am wrong. Think this will help.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
RE: Helix AG 250Z Front port/firing
As I read the info regarding the Helix Angular Design, it says that, we can adjust the back firing to front firing, by adding one "Sonic Fin." So, for the Helix AG 250 z, which has 180mm difference between fins will be, 180mm + 630mm = 810mm. So the total height will be 1,080 mm (900mm + 180mm). Please correct me, if I am wrong. I hope we can make a successful front firing Helix AG 250z. Thanks for sharing your experience in 3D Sprial.
As I read the info regarding the Helix Angular Design, it says that, we can adjust the back firing to front firing, by adding one "Sonic Fin." So, for the Helix AG 250 z, which has 180mm difference between fins will be, 180mm + 630mm = 810mm. So the total height will be 1,080 mm (900mm + 180mm). Please correct me, if I am wrong. I hope we can make a successful front firing Helix AG 250z. Thanks for sharing your experience in 3D Sprial.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hello,
I have build two pairs of angular spiral speakers in the past with the same drivers. Maybe I din't done it correctly but the rear firing one was inferior to my ears than the front firing, which has a verry nice bass for its size. I think rear firing was inferior even to the sealed version of these drivers.
Btw, the speakers are two way, crossed at 3000 Hz.
I have build two pairs of angular spiral speakers in the past with the same drivers. Maybe I din't done it correctly but the rear firing one was inferior to my ears than the front firing, which has a verry nice bass for its size. I think rear firing was inferior even to the sealed version of these drivers.
Btw, the speakers are two way, crossed at 3000 Hz.
so the fact was i used the wrong driver: i used a pair of AN super 8" instead of the fostex 206 this cabinet is designed around. at the time i'd got really no understanding of T/S parameters... with the bottom removed the AN sounded acceptable, but still with harsh treble and huge dips in the lower-mids (i think by ear).
one guy here on the forum tried them with succes with the fostex 206, but he had to use BSC for the bass to come out: compared to a 206 in a BLH it's not a great success...
i think they are rather complex. use at least some expanding glue to get the fins right... nowadays i really don't see the clue about the design. with all the great stuff from the frugel horn site, and designs like the solo 206 for the fostex or the possibility to go OB with the AN. keeping sensitivity/avoiding BSC.
furthermore many said the spiral horn to be not more than a quarterwave. a strangely (read bad) designed one. perhaps the sheets from MJK being only 25$ you can have some fun with designing one and spend less money/time with those difficult fins
certainly the spiral-horn deserves better investigation than mine. but then do it only if you already know very well what to expect from the drivers. i.e. only if you already have a good cabinet they are playing in.
let us know your discoveries if you choose the hard path..
one guy here on the forum tried them with succes with the fostex 206, but he had to use BSC for the bass to come out: compared to a 206 in a BLH it's not a great success...
i think they are rather complex. use at least some expanding glue to get the fins right... nowadays i really don't see the clue about the design. with all the great stuff from the frugel horn site, and designs like the solo 206 for the fostex or the possibility to go OB with the AN. keeping sensitivity/avoiding BSC.
furthermore many said the spiral horn to be not more than a quarterwave. a strangely (read bad) designed one. perhaps the sheets from MJK being only 25$ you can have some fun with designing one and spend less money/time with those difficult fins
certainly the spiral-horn deserves better investigation than mine. but then do it only if you already know very well what to expect from the drivers. i.e. only if you already have a good cabinet they are playing in.
let us know your discoveries if you choose the hard path..
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regarding a front-firing version i mailed the author but had not replies, maybe someone can help, but one thing i can say is the bass could become really big with rear-firing corner loaded on some discs/passages.
reagarding the hole, mine (in the photos) was the size of the project, just rounded a bit. if you dive into the japanese site, you can see he came with the result that a costant twin hole of about 3cm is working better on every cabinet, regardless of the driver. also check out for the smallers 8" versions, the all seem to have same frequency response. now such a response from so a little cabinet could be an achivement.
but again don't do it if you don't know what quality to expect from the drivers, to know which a simple test baffle is a funny way to know.
reagarding the hole, mine (in the photos) was the size of the project, just rounded a bit. if you dive into the japanese site, you can see he came with the result that a costant twin hole of about 3cm is working better on every cabinet, regardless of the driver. also check out for the smallers 8" versions, the all seem to have same frequency response. now such a response from so a little cabinet could be an achivement.
but again don't do it if you don't know what quality to expect from the drivers, to know which a simple test baffle is a funny way to know.
Thanks. So far my experience with Helix AG 280z bookshelf with AN Super 8 is good. I am planning to go for Helix AG 250z floorstand to transfer the AN Super 8 in large room. In large rooms, my concern is only the bass. Since you said that the Helix AG 250Z go down to 35hz, that's good. Your problem with harshness can be solved by using 12 gauge magnet wire for internal and external speaker wire. Yes, it is hard but you can form it like a telephone wire handset. You can also use Audio Magic. But as much as possible I want to avoid using any crossover in the speaker. The amp tone controls are enough for me. The You Tube video I posted is my testament that AN Super 8 are really good speakers. Recording the sound of speakers using your digital cam will reveal the true colors of your speakers. It has an enveloping sound. The Helix AG 280z can be used in small to medium live rooms. But for large room, I will transfer the AN Super 8 to Helix AG 250z or CSA's 2.8 ser.1 twin port cabinet.
Regarding the drawing of HElix AG 250z, just follow the exact drawing. It didn't use any hole port for this design. He also mentioned in his site that, to make a front firing, will only add one sonic fin with the mouth opening to the square port. I will update you after I finish making the project. But maybe not now. I am still busy. Maybe I will risk to make the Helix AG 250 front firing. I will modify it myself by adding one sonic fin.
Thanks.
i have seen somebody who really knows what he is saying has made some observation in the other thread about your tries with the angular sprial... i think it's good to consider any opinion fro the forum, but after some time haning around and reading threads you'll really understand who's opinion you should really not miss out. and Scottmoose certainly is among them. so reconsider his observations. also in other threads he and others helped me figure out what to do with the ANsuper8, you can easily find that althought i don't remember the name of the thread...
for what i can say. the An sounded ok in their CSA monitor enclosure regarding only the upper mid, treble was harsh, and there was no convincing bass. i had them for a while on OB, now the sound was great! best i heard, but this doesn't mean much cause i didn't have any considerable gear before... btw the point is that the spiral horn sounded all-wrong, except sometime-bass, and this was from direct comparison to the CSA small enclosure. comparing to the OB the sound was embarassing...
when you claim they sound good what are you comparing against?
i'm courious about the bookshelf model 280, was it designed specially for the AN? i couldn't find it on the site. if it was designed for the fostex 8" then i think there is noway it can sound good with the AN.
among the enclosure from CSA someone claimed the 2.8 to be optimal solution, since we have no specs no one has come out with a better design yet, but even David Dicks is suggesting to use the big port version and not the tween one. for the AN needs help in the lower-mid region... but then Dave another guy on this who's opinion is precious, said he had no luck with a friend's pair of 2.8 even after trying some tweaking lenghtening the port
for what i can say. the An sounded ok in their CSA monitor enclosure regarding only the upper mid, treble was harsh, and there was no convincing bass. i had them for a while on OB, now the sound was great! best i heard, but this doesn't mean much cause i didn't have any considerable gear before... btw the point is that the spiral horn sounded all-wrong, except sometime-bass, and this was from direct comparison to the CSA small enclosure. comparing to the OB the sound was embarassing...
when you claim they sound good what are you comparing against?
i'm courious about the bookshelf model 280, was it designed specially for the AN? i couldn't find it on the site. if it was designed for the fostex 8" then i think there is noway it can sound good with the AN.
among the enclosure from CSA someone claimed the 2.8 to be optimal solution, since we have no specs no one has come out with a better design yet, but even David Dicks is suggesting to use the big port version and not the tween one. for the AN needs help in the lower-mid region... but then Dave another guy on this who's opinion is precious, said he had no luck with a friend's pair of 2.8 even after trying some tweaking lenghtening the port
the best i can suggest you is build the CSA 2.8 only if you really need an enclosure, after all they are so big that you can always use them to put something like shoes adding some planes to them
if you are in the position to go open baffle then GO OPEN BAFFLE. it's not the holy-grail, but i think it can really take the super8 to shift your expectations.
consider also that the super8 even in the big CSA will not perform below 50hz,
so some sort of bass augmentation will be needed soon or later...
for the spiral horns to give bass i was using terrible equalization to lower everything above 250hz... really not a good thing.
now it would be a great thing to hear a success story about the spiral horn, perhaps one of the original fostex models. but then it would be success only directly tested against a know design for the same driver. experimenting without a reference is just like making a map without a starting point, too many tries and often you'll miss the point.
if you are in the position to go open baffle then GO OPEN BAFFLE. it's not the holy-grail, but i think it can really take the super8 to shift your expectations.
consider also that the super8 even in the big CSA will not perform below 50hz,
so some sort of bass augmentation will be needed soon or later...
for the spiral horns to give bass i was using terrible equalization to lower everything above 250hz... really not a good thing.
now it would be a great thing to hear a success story about the spiral horn, perhaps one of the original fostex models. but then it would be success only directly tested against a know design for the same driver. experimenting without a reference is just like making a map without a starting point, too many tries and often you'll miss the point.
the best i can suggest you is build the CSA 2.8 only if you really need an enclosure, after all they are so big that you can always use them to put something like shoes adding some planes to them
if you are in the position to go open baffle then GO OPEN BAFFLE. it's not the holy-grail, but i think it can really take the super8 to shift your expectations.
consider also that the super8 even in the big CSA will not perform below 50hz,
so some sort of bass augmentation will be needed soon or later...
for the spiral horns to give bass i was using terrible equalization to lower everything above 250hz... really not a good thing.
now it would be a great thing to hear a success story about the spiral horn, perhaps one of the original fostex models. but then it would be success only directly tested against a know design for the same driver. experimenting without a reference is just like making a map without a starting point, too many tries and often you'll miss the point.
Thanks for the honest reply. So far, I never experienced bass problem with Audio Nirvana Super 8 in Helix AG 280z. My Uncle who owns an Avant Garde Trio speaker tried it to his listening room and AB comparison the simple AN Super 8 in Helix AG 280z, was amazed on how it sounds. He was amazed because he never thought the speaker will sound like holographic and detailed in just a small amount of money. He invested hundreds of pesos or more or less $60,000.00 for his Avant Garde Trio speakers. He never told me that my speaker is better. But at least he told me the sound of AN Super 8 in Helix AG 280 was quite close to his set up. The ears are the best tester in audio world, according to him. He has enough money to buy High End but he congratulate me to find a speaker like AN Super 8. So I think, AN Super 8 is not so bad with regards to audio performance. "Our ears are the best tester of an audio system in the audio world."
This is not a battle of which is the best fullrange driver. It is about what makes us happy in audio hobby. I am happy with it and nobody can say that the speaker is harsh or not balance. Maybe my ears are abnormal not to hear what you heard from AN Super 8. The fact that I am satisfied with Audio Nirvana, means the sound of it is nice to my ears regardless of wrong specification of the speakers. I got the idea of taking a video to test its performance, when I took a video of a live performance in an acoustically treated concert hall and seated in the front row. The video from the live performance I took before, is almost the same live sound I took in my audio system. My digital camera is a 16 bit stereo. That's my own principle in audio testing.
I appreciate all your comments. We are here in DIYAudio to learn, share our experiences and respect each opinions and experiences. We love audio that's why we are here in this forum. To share the excitement we have in audio.
if so your findings about the 280 is a really interesting one, did you try to contact the japanese man behind them? i'd no luck when i tried, but maybe he can give an helping hand designing a cabinet specific for the AN. i recall there was a not tested design for the AN super 10" there down the page...
again with the AN in the 250 i also tried some stuffing behind the driver to accomodate the high-mids and highs, i though standing waves in the small chamber could be the issue. but nothing. be careful for long listening of the peaks, the one at 15khz is really high, can damage your hearing. indeed i think that many fullrange users end up accomodating their ears to the drivers, a sort of cybernetic take at BSC
for the price of a pair of baffles and two holes you should really try out the mid/highs performance of the AN when mounted OB
good luck! and keep us informed
again with the AN in the 250 i also tried some stuffing behind the driver to accomodate the high-mids and highs, i though standing waves in the small chamber could be the issue. but nothing. be careful for long listening of the peaks, the one at 15khz is really high, can damage your hearing. indeed i think that many fullrange users end up accomodating their ears to the drivers, a sort of cybernetic take at BSC
for the price of a pair of baffles and two holes you should really try out the mid/highs performance of the AN when mounted OB
good luck! and keep us informed
if so your findings about the 280 is a really interesting one, did you try to contact the japanese man behind them? i'd no luck when i tried, but maybe he can give an helping hand designing a cabinet specific for the AN. i recall there was a not tested design for the AN super 10" there down the page...
again with the AN in the 250 i also tried some stuffing behind the driver to accomodate the high-mids and highs, i though standing waves in the small chamber could be the issue. but nothing. be careful for long listening of the peaks, the one at 15khz is really high, can damage your hearing. indeed i think that many fullrange users end up accomodating their ears to the drivers, a sort of cybernetic take at BSC
for the price of a pair of baffles and two holes you should really try out the mid/highs performance of the AN when mounted OB
good luck! and keep us informed
Thanks for the understanding. I tried calling the Japanese guy but no response. Maybe, he just want us to figure it out by ourselves. I am still thinking if I go with Helix AG 250z or 5.6 cabinet from CSA. Since, I already have a Helix 280, maybe I'll try 5.6 cabinet. I'll let you know. By the way, what's your speaker cabinet today. Did you make a BIB? Think that's good cabinet when properly made.
Good luck.
i was experimenting OB but the wind form the window crasched one panel and the driver collapsed. as said OB can give much satysfaction, the price for a woofer is really within the price for a 5.6 BB woods... and the bass will be better than your uncle's avantgrade
btw i think it's really clever to try the CSA cabinet so you can make a comparison with the already working spirals and let us know.
just one thing, ask david dicks if the 5.6 is suitable for the 8" and what kind of port will work better, i think he is always suggesting the big port on the 8".
can you really live with a cabinet so big? it's almost the same space: width and distance from the wall that a big OB would take maybe the 2.8mkII is more friendly, ask CSA if the 5.6 is worth the super 8...
now that i recall on one thread of some months ago a guys showed a back loaded horn, they said the AN was working good within. anyway i think going CSA 2.8 or 5.6 is the best way to have a real reference. don't even think of their smaller cabinets...
btw i think it's really clever to try the CSA cabinet so you can make a comparison with the already working spirals and let us know.
just one thing, ask david dicks if the 5.6 is suitable for the 8" and what kind of port will work better, i think he is always suggesting the big port on the 8".
can you really live with a cabinet so big? it's almost the same space: width and distance from the wall that a big OB would take
maybe the 2.8mkII is more friendly, ask CSA if the 5.6 is worth the super 8...now that i recall on one thread of some months ago a guys showed a back loaded horn, they said the AN was working good within. anyway i think going CSA 2.8 or 5.6 is the best way to have a real reference. don't even think of their smaller cabinets...
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