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EnABL - Technical discussion
EnABL - Technical discussion
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Old 21st March 2008, 08:41 PM   #51
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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EnABL - Technical discussion
Default Waterfals and such

We have a lot of waterfalls here in Hawaii. They're very pretty.

We have a lot of waterfall plots here on this thread. Also very pretty.

I understand ours here in Hawaii - but the plots......

Can someone here please help an ignorant guy like me understand the waterfall plots a little better? I know it's a 3 dimension thing, time/frequency/amplitude - but I'll be darned if I understand what "sounds better" (or worse) by looking at the plot.

Can someone please point me to a source for understanding these? For example, if a certain speaker where perfect, what would the plot look like? And when we see imperfections, what are the causes, or at least the sonic results?

Sorry for the detour, but I'm a bit lost in all these cascading plots.
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Old 21st March 2008, 09:12 PM   #52
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Default Re: Waterfals and such

Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac

For example, if a certain speaker where perfect, what would the plot look like?
That's been done.

Go back to the original EnABL thread, find the post by john k that shows a comparison of a driver with three resonances and what its CSD looks like, then the one right after it for one if all resonances were removed and you'll see it. You'll also notice that even a "perfect" driver does not have a "perfect" CSD, because any real driver is a bandpass device. Keep in mind, even a "perfect" CSD would be on one axis only, since no driver is a point source radiator.

Quote:

And when we see imperfections, what are the causes, or at least the sonic results?
The causes are usually fairly easy to determine, the sonic results are never clear. But again, you can't tell much about the sound from any single CSD.

Dave
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Old 21st March 2008, 09:47 PM   #53
Daygloworange is offline Daygloworange  Canada
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Default Re: Re: data interpretation

Quote:
Originally posted by dlr

So far, there has been no attempt to make a full set of measurements before and after treatment by proponents who do provide measurements. I don't believe that there ever will be. On-axis responses are touted by proponents as definitive. The subjectivists have no desire to learn these details, they prefer to re-hash previously made, simplistic, single on-axis measurements as if they were conclusive.
There will be a full set of tests. The processs is already underway.

Bud had contacted me right away when I offered to help arrange for the tests. So, in all fairness to Bud, he's not hiding from objective analysis of EnABL.

Bud has sent out the drivers to RAW Acoustics for testing. Al from RAW will be doing a number of on axis/off axis tests from different proximities. He's got a pretty elaborate set of tests in mind.

Al will take take steps to ensure consistency and provide the comprehensive data that all of us would like to see.

We will also have someone else test the drivers after RAW has completed their tests, as an additional control.

In short, we will have proper data to analyse the effects, before, and after EnABL.

Cheers
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Old 21st March 2008, 09:56 PM   #54
Daygloworange is offline Daygloworange  Canada
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I also have an idea to test if there are indeed any measureable differences in EnABL'ng ports and baffle edges.

I haven't been following the technical details of what the EnABL patterns used in those instances are.

If those that are experimenting with this can provide me details of the patterns for ports and baffle edges, I can produce decals of various thicknesses of vinyl, and have them cut and pre masked, ready to be applied for RAW Acoustics to test as well.

Can anyone send me the EnABLE patterns for these?

I can accept PDF, AI, DWG, DXF as well as others.

Cheers
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Old 21st March 2008, 10:07 PM   #55
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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EnABL - Technical discussion
What I have asked for is a characterization of six Tang Band 3 inch alleged full range drivers. After characterization that includes dlr's off axis CSD and off axis distortion tests. Al will pick two and send them to me for EnABL patterns. Another set of the same tests will be run with a retest of the other drivers. A pair of these may also go to Planet 10 for his appraisal, of applying his particular materials. After all testing is finished, all go off to another facility to have the final tests done again.

Are there suggestions on more complete methods or additional tests that should be run? Optimum test distances etc.?

Bud
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Old 21st March 2008, 11:00 PM   #56
auplater is offline auplater  United States
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Default testing design???

Quote:
Originally posted by Daygloworange


There will be a full set of tests. The processs is already underway.

<snip>

I also have an idea to test if there are indeed any measureable differences in EnABL'ng ports and baffle edges.

I haven't been following the technical details of what the EnABL patterns used in those instances are.

If those that are experimenting with this can provide me details of the patterns for ports and baffle edges, I can produce decals of various thicknesses of vinyl, and have them cut and pre masked, ready to be applied for RAW Acoustics to test as well.

Can anyone send me the EnABLE patterns for these?

I can accept PDF, AI, DWG, DXF as well as others.

Cheers

Anyone care to share the testing protocol / design / method that will be used for all these tests? No? I thought not... there probably isn't much of one in existence....

Not much discussion here about what would be useful experiments to run. Just alot of diffuse talk of "we'll test on axis, off axis, characterization (whatever that means). What tests will be run? How will the results be evaluated? Will any kind of explanation of errors in the tests, their limitations, how to present the data, number of trials, what variables will be examined? Or are we just gonna get more extraneous data of dubious merit to hash through again as if it represents the holy grail? Do any of the testers have any sort of understanding of treatment combinations, confidence intervals, alpha error, that sort of thing?

Otherwise, why bother doing the tests? The results will be no better than subjective anecdotal evidence as far as determining what (if anything) is going on unless there is some serious planning involved on how to do them and how to interpret the results.

John L.
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Old 21st March 2008, 11:00 PM   #57
Oz_Audio is offline Oz_Audio
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Gidday all.

I have been reading this and other threads regarding this process and am fascinated.

My next project will be using PHY-HP drivers and have emailed Bud for his files to EnABL them.

A general question for all:

As I live in the tropics of Australia, my house is in a Rain Forrest, the environment is very humid and mold abounds every "Wet Season".

I believe the PHY drivers are untreated paper, after the EnABL process, what should I coat them with so they can live happily in this environment?

Regards

Mark
Cairns Australia
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Old 21st March 2008, 11:40 PM   #58
Daygloworange is offline Daygloworange  Canada
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Default Re: testing design???

Quote:
Originally posted by auplater

Anyone care to share the testing protocol / design / method that will be used for all these tests? No? I thought not... there probably isn't much of one in existence....

Not much discussion here about what would be useful experiments to run.
I posed the question (in the other thread) asking what tests people might think would be helpful.

I don't remember seeing anyone person respond.....


Quote:
Or are we just gonna get more extraneous data of dubious merit to hash through again as if it represents the holy grail? Do any of the testers have any sort of understanding of treatment combinations, confidence intervals, alpha error, that sort of thing?
The testers are individuals who agreed to donate their time to do the tests that they feel will shed useful data on the effects of EnABl simply to investigate for themselves.

Should the tests not meet your criteria, feel free to arrange a more comprehensive set of tests yourself, and present them here for everyone's approval.

That would be great.

Cheers

(Seriously John L, why the negative attitude dude?)
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Old 21st March 2008, 11:45 PM   #59
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Default Re: CSD's (or not)

Quote:
Originally posted by auplater


Why are you going on about CSD's? They don't tell much about what one hears from those that are presented here. The only conclusions that can be drawn are that, from a single on axis csd compared with a like plot for another driver tested under the same conditions, the one with faster settling, with smoother response, indicates the better driver, other things being equal (power handling, dispersion, etc.) That's all. And unless multiple runs of the same 2 drivers are presented, you can only speak about the 2 drivers under test. And it seems lost on believers what the meaning of variance, standard deviation, experimental error, all the accepted tools for evaluating data sets means.

Unless proponents move beyond cheerleading with lame "informative snippets" of limited merit, this thread seems doomed to an early death. By design, no doubt.
Because I see a very close relationship with CSD and what is heard. I know for a fact that the clean Fostex 126E needs the taming.

I am not the chearleading type, and I don't care whether a thread dies or not. But if people that don't know how to get things to work start throwing wrong information around, I will show personally tested information. Whom can really show their own data and test that they measured?
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Old 21st March 2008, 11:49 PM   #60
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Default Re: Waterfals and such

I do recall an article on it at the Liberty Praxis site.
There is now perfect CSD for speaker, but amplifiers get pretty close with resistive loading. In short, a perfect CSD would look more like a flat wall than CSD.
Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac
We have a lot of waterfalls here in Hawaii. They're very pretty.

We have a lot of waterfall plots here on this thread. Also very pretty.

I understand ours here in Hawaii - but the plots......

Can someone here please help an ignorant guy like me understand the waterfall plots a little better? I know it's a 3 dimension thing, time/frequency/amplitude - but I'll be darned if I understand what "sounds better" (or worse) by looking at the plot.

Can someone please point me to a source for understanding these? For example, if a certain speaker where perfect, what would the plot look like? And when we see imperfections, what are the causes, or at least the sonic results?

Sorry for the detour, but I'm a bit lost in all these cascading plots.
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