G'day Alex!
Actually I already did my baffles, they were the first EnABL I tried! I did find the soundstage opened up a bit. I would agree that it helps to hide the speakers, aurally.
I used some acrylic paint I had already, and a template I cut from paper, reinforced with tape. Perhaps tape on the baffle directly would've been more effective. I might give that a shot on my next speakers, which will also be a 3-way open baffle.
Simon
Actually I already did my baffles, they were the first EnABL I tried! I did find the soundstage opened up a bit. I would agree that it helps to hide the speakers, aurally.
I used some acrylic paint I had already, and a template I cut from paper, reinforced with tape. Perhaps tape on the baffle directly would've been more effective. I might give that a shot on my next speakers, which will also be a 3-way open baffle.
Simon
First, I ordered an enABLE kit from Ed to give it a try. If it works as though stated, great grand and wonderful. If not, well, I tried it and like many tweaks or attempts in audio to better ones listening pleasure, it will be on the lower end of the price scale.
To this I am waiting for reports on the Beta8.
Second......dlr,
I just have to ask. Why are you so intent on telling everyone what they can't possibly be hearing? If you do not wish to try it, don't. They separated the threads so you people with your viewpoint would have your own thread to bash this idea. This one was created for for those wanting to know more about application and technique. LIKE ME.
I am surprised the Mods haven't designated you a troll, because it seems to me your just looking for a fight and constantly challenging the Mod to delete your posts to prove your point. Hopefully they will have enough and take you up on that.
The arguments really detract from the threads value.
To this I am waiting for reports on the Beta8.
Second......dlr,
I just have to ask. Why are you so intent on telling everyone what they can't possibly be hearing? If you do not wish to try it, don't. They separated the threads so you people with your viewpoint would have your own thread to bash this idea. This one was created for for those wanting to know more about application and technique. LIKE ME.
I am surprised the Mods haven't designated you a troll, because it seems to me your just looking for a fight and constantly challenging the Mod to delete your posts to prove your point. Hopefully they will have enough and take you up on that.
The arguments really detract from the threads value.
soongsc,
The plots I was referring to are the last set of four that you posted. I believe that to be about the same time you privately asked me about a simplified pattern you were using and if it was related to EnABL too closely. In any event, these plots show a dramatic reduction in ringing in the mid band of the driver, as the CSD plot shows a vertical wall, rather than the usual decay over time.
Bud
The plots I was referring to are the last set of four that you posted. I believe that to be about the same time you privately asked me about a simplified pattern you were using and if it was related to EnABL too closely. In any event, these plots show a dramatic reduction in ringing in the mid band of the driver, as the CSD plot shows a vertical wall, rather than the usual decay over time.
Bud
Hey Bud,
got my Beta8's today (4 of them) and have ordered the enABL kit from Ed. Hoping to get a report from Gary P on his take for this driver.
You stated you thought this driver was very good and I hope to hear the same. A sweet and rich mid-bass/mid-range is what I am looking for.
I will start breaking in the drivers tonight and should log 200 hours before my enABL kit gets here. Which should be the first 'ring' I should do to compare to non-enABLed drivers ? (doing two at a time)
thanks Bud,
andy
got my Beta8's today (4 of them) and have ordered the enABL kit from Ed. Hoping to get a report from Gary P on his take for this driver.
You stated you thought this driver was very good and I hope to hear the same. A sweet and rich mid-bass/mid-range is what I am looking for.
I will start breaking in the drivers tonight and should log 200 hours before my enABL kit gets here. Which should be the first 'ring' I should do to compare to non-enABLed drivers ? (doing two at a time)
thanks Bud,
andy
nvrgdenuf,
I have not spoken with Gary in a week or more. His plan was to pull some comparative tests before installing them. He did tell me about performing a tap test upon his 15 inch woofers, finding the major null point and applying tape diamonds to the back of the woofer with very good results. Hopefully he will divulge some particulars about this too.
As for which rows first.
1.) inner most and outer ring on the front of the cone
2.) mid cone ring on the front of the cone
3.) mid cone ring on the back of the cone
4.) dome rings.
5.) gloss coat on front
6.) adhesive coats on the back side
7.) gloss coat on the back side
8.) outer mounting ring and a coat of gloss over it after a day.
Listen between each of these steps and perhaps make short notes upon what changes you notice. After the mid cone ring on the front and back, there should be a pretty clear difference, between treated and untreated, in frequencies up to 1 K and then above that the treated units will be much more confused sounding than the untreated. After applying the damping glue, which does not come with Ed's kit, this confusion will turn into a very deeply detailed and audibly flat upper mid, all the way to 10k or better. Note that I treat these things nude, on a stand, with the magnet lifted enough to get the driver face perpendicular to the floor. This just to eliminate baffle problems, as they will be predominant by the time you get the drivers done.
Bud
I have not spoken with Gary in a week or more. His plan was to pull some comparative tests before installing them. He did tell me about performing a tap test upon his 15 inch woofers, finding the major null point and applying tape diamonds to the back of the woofer with very good results. Hopefully he will divulge some particulars about this too.
As for which rows first.
1.) inner most and outer ring on the front of the cone
2.) mid cone ring on the front of the cone
3.) mid cone ring on the back of the cone
4.) dome rings.
5.) gloss coat on front
6.) adhesive coats on the back side
7.) gloss coat on the back side
8.) outer mounting ring and a coat of gloss over it after a day.
Listen between each of these steps and perhaps make short notes upon what changes you notice. After the mid cone ring on the front and back, there should be a pretty clear difference, between treated and untreated, in frequencies up to 1 K and then above that the treated units will be much more confused sounding than the untreated. After applying the damping glue, which does not come with Ed's kit, this confusion will turn into a very deeply detailed and audibly flat upper mid, all the way to 10k or better. Note that I treat these things nude, on a stand, with the magnet lifted enough to get the driver face perpendicular to the floor. This just to eliminate baffle problems, as they will be predominant by the time you get the drivers done.
Bud
Guess I should have said that I listen to these things nude on a stand. I do not treat them when they are on the stands, that occurs on the kitchen table.
I consider them done when they are omnidirectional in character, deeply detailed and exhibit wide band, low level coherence. This last is comprised of echoes from waves reflecting in rooms and the sound those waves produce as they doppler shift and move away from the backside (?) of the emitter, in the perceived reproduction field.
Bud
I consider them done when they are omnidirectional in character, deeply detailed and exhibit wide band, low level coherence. This last is comprised of echoes from waves reflecting in rooms and the sound those waves produce as they doppler shift and move away from the backside (?) of the emitter, in the perceived reproduction field.
Bud
Bud,BudP said:
If you are talking about this link. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1427403#post1427403
Feel free to use it. My own process looks nothing like this. The only discussion I recall about the private discussion regarding the pattern was that I thought you had the patent described too specific, and thus very easily avoided.
Also, be aware that different tools seem to vary a bit in how the CSD is generated. I like the way SoundEasy does it.
Soongsc,
Can you say anything about your final results with JX92S drivers? Did you manage to completely tame the >10KHz raggedness in these speakers? I'm not sure I understand the plot titles in the link referenced http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1427403#post1427403
Before tuning = untreated cone?
After tuning = treated cone with early toothpaste pattern?
Modified pattern = treated cone with strips (are these metal strips?)
Edit:The early toothpaste pattern seems to give better decay in the high freqs than the strips & therefore cleaners sound - am I interpreting the CSDs correctly?
Are you using a totally different process on your JX92S drivers?
Have you gone commercial with any of this?
Sorry for all the questions & I know you may not be able to answer some of these if they are commercially sensitive!
Can you say anything about your final results with JX92S drivers? Did you manage to completely tame the >10KHz raggedness in these speakers? I'm not sure I understand the plot titles in the link referenced http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1427403#post1427403
Before tuning = untreated cone?
After tuning = treated cone with early toothpaste pattern?
Modified pattern = treated cone with strips (are these metal strips?)
Edit:The early toothpaste pattern seems to give better decay in the high freqs than the strips & therefore cleaners sound - am I interpreting the CSDs correctly?
Are you using a totally different process on your JX92S drivers?
Have you gone commercial with any of this?
Sorry for all the questions & I know you may not be able to answer some of these if they are commercially sensitive!
Those are for a 3" driver using my pattern. Trying to figure out how to get the pattern implemented with less labor. I would bet the little Jordans would do better if treated, but I could not get the low frequencies to perform the way I needed. The 20+KHz breakup mode is still not consistently good enough, but we will get it better in a newer model.BudP said:
Bear in mind that I always start to become dissatisfied after about 3 months of listening to any pair of speakers. There is always something there that I wish I could improve.
Your understanding of the plots are correct. However, note that the decay rate and the residual rasonance floor differences in the different patterns. The toothpasted one will sound a bit more pleasing due to the balanced decay, and the stripped one will sound cleaner. The toothpasted one will seem a bit louder. The stripped one will reveal a bit more detail.jkeny said:
Those were the last I ever did with the JX92. So, no, I have not gone commercial with the JX92S. If I ever figure out a way to get them to perform well in a small enclosure, then probably I would consider taking it further.
Thanks Soongsc,
Final Qs - what metal strip & glue/paint are you using or does it matter? Can you define the parameters of the pattern, please?
I had a friend build me some compact enclosures for the JX92S which gets a lot of tuneful bass out of them with a very balanced & refined sound throughout the spectrum. Has been passed as excellent sounding by local hifi club - up against Quad ESL57s. It's a design called a 3D Spiral Horn meant for full range Fostexs and AFAIK I'm the only one to have used JX92S in this enclosure type.
Size wise - about the size of Rogers LS3/5As which they are replacing
Thread here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119903&highlight=
Final Qs - what metal strip & glue/paint are you using or does it matter? Can you define the parameters of the pattern, please?
I had a friend build me some compact enclosures for the JX92S which gets a lot of tuneful bass out of them with a very balanced & refined sound throughout the spectrum. Has been passed as excellent sounding by local hifi club - up against Quad ESL57s. It's a design called a 3D Spiral Horn meant for full range Fostexs and AFAIK I'm the only one to have used JX92S in this enclosure type.
Size wise - about the size of Rogers LS3/5As which they are replacing
Thread here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119903&highlight=
Attachments
jkeny,
You might also be interested in these two posts on the Jordan driver. Sonngsc's mid cone pattern is applied and results are reported in the first post. The second is his CSD for what the mid cone ring actually does.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1460290#post1460290
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1231568#post1231568
Bud
You might also be interested in these two posts on the Jordan driver. Sonngsc's mid cone pattern is applied and results are reported in the first post. The second is his CSD for what the mid cone ring actually does.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1460290#post1460290
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1231568#post1231568
Bud
Thanks Bud,
I appreciate your links & your detailed analysis of the sound of these drivers - your correlation of the Enable rings applied to perceived sound improvements is very interesting & informative.
I'm drawn to Soongsc's metal strips initially because they do seem so much simpler than the ring patterns of the full ENaBled driver. But I guess only if the metal strips are easily removed without cone damage?
I appreciate your links & your detailed analysis of the sound of these drivers - your correlation of the Enable rings applied to perceived sound improvements is very interesting & informative.
I'm drawn to Soongsc's metal strips initially because they do seem so much simpler than the ring patterns of the full ENaBled driver. But I guess only if the metal strips are easily removed without cone damage?
jkenny,
Actually, I think the large simple shapes were accompanied by dots of various sizes, distributed around the cone surface, probably out beyond the pattern bars. There is some cautionary information from Soongsc about these dots and their removal, buried in the giant thread, but I do not remember an actual picture showing just where he placed them.
Beyond that it is his derivation, backed by careful testing and listening. I have no idea if one set of treatments is superior to the other, but mine does not have any testing to back up what I heard. Based on the two sets I have done, you will likely be delighted with the results from either process.
Bud
Actually, I think the large simple shapes were accompanied by dots of various sizes, distributed around the cone surface, probably out beyond the pattern bars. There is some cautionary information from Soongsc about these dots and their removal, buried in the giant thread, but I do not remember an actual picture showing just where he placed them.
Beyond that it is his derivation, backed by careful testing and listening. I have no idea if one set of treatments is superior to the other, but mine does not have any testing to back up what I heard. Based on the two sets I have done, you will likely be delighted with the results from either process.
Bud
The metal strip was made specifically for testing of various patterns. From what the factory has told me, they are nickel based with thick crome plating, and come with adhesive glue on the back. This kind of material is normally used for making labels.jkeny said:
If you have any impedance measurements for the JX92S in this enclosure, I would very much like to look at them.
The pattern parameters, well, really no analysis done, just made a choice based on gut feeling and experience. I will try to find that driver and measure it. But these really don't do the JX92S justice.
Oh so you got these metal strips specially made? There is no off-the-shelf equivalent. Do the dots on your cone, that Bud pointed out to me, make your pattern as complex as the original toothpasted one?
I don't have impedance measurements for these speakers but I will do this if it's relatively easy & I have the necessary tools & know-how. I'll have a look at how to do this or do you have a link I can read?
I don't have impedance measurements for these speakers but I will do this if it's relatively easy & I have the necessary tools & know-how. I'll have a look at how to do this or do you have a link I can read?
Some information on this using SpeakerWorkshop (freeware) can be found here.jkeny said:
http://www.claudionegro.com/
I'm not sure which dot's you are referring to, but my own method includes two parts. 1. Patterned stripes, which should have about the same number of strips as already shown. Just the arrangement is totally different. I should be able to show some examples in the next few months. 2. Damping sticky dots, which are used to provide a combination of damping and mass distribution control.
The strips are specially made, about US$100 for half an A4 size (is that called A5?)